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Post by Patcat on Mar 29, 2005 11:27:38 GMT -5
As I wrote earlier, my knowledge of incest is fortunately based only on reading and hearing about the subject. But I found Beatrice's reactions believable and understandable. I also agree that this story dealt with the subject in an offhand manner. I don't believe Josh knew about the incest, but I wonder if he suspected something might be wrong? And chose to ignore it?
The episode might have been stronger if incest had not been involved in the father and daughter relationship. The combined motives of a threat from his son-in-law (the rising star versus the established one) and the father's sheer possessiveness of his daughter would have been enough for murder. Tommy's desire to possess his daughter emotionally and mentally might have been scarier than a desire to possess her physically (and let me hasten to add that I'm in no way minimizing the effects of incest). Perhaps the writers of this episode might argue that Tommy's egotism expresses itself in a physical way--eating, threatening, sexually--and that's why the incest was included.
Patcat
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Post by lisianthus on Mar 29, 2005 12:25:05 GMT -5
Oh, Jeeze, now I have to say something too. I just hope it's as well stated as some of you.
I agree with Nicholemarie and her description of Beatrice. Beatrice, at 1st, thought her husband had run off-his ring was left behind. Then she realized what the screws were and realized she had the power. Never having had the power before, she overdid it. She took the buisinesses and her dads loft, and demoted her dad to prep work. She also caused physical pain as best she could- the lemon juice on Dad's open cut, "This won't hurt a bit. Remember the first time you said that to me?" I do wish they had said something about how it started or it's affect on her. The writer's mentioned her Mom dieing when she was 12, they could have had Goren comment how she took her mothers place.
I also thought Duke's wife (and Duke, to a lesser extent) was still afraid of Tommy. Hence the detectives needing to convince her to say something even now.
Terry
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Post by NicoleMarie on Mar 29, 2005 13:07:59 GMT -5
What is art? For me it is the expression of humanity that every human recognizes in themselves as they watch, listen, read to anything creative. With my views on this episode, I might be guilty of not recognizing something I don't see in myself. But I'm trying to understand. That is beautiful Sirennah! That's the true beauty of art, it's open to different interpretation from different people. I don't think any one person will have the very same reaction to art, whether it be TV, movies, music, paintings or architecture.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Mar 29, 2005 13:11:23 GMT -5
To clarify my post about Beatrice:
I didn't mean to imply Beatrice was instantly free or instantly healed. I meant Beatrice was free to heal herself, she was no longer a terrified prisoner of her dad. Her life could go on without those chains around her.
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Post by rosemary on Jan 4, 2006 18:13:35 GMT -5
Just rewatched "Death Roe" today. Well... to me it's quite understandable that the same person can be shyly afraid and plotting revenge -- at the same time. I have to return to my own dark past. I am a survivor of abuse. A stranger, not a relative, so it wasn't incest, but nevertheless, it was sexual. Very sexual. For the past year I have been harrassed by the assaulter as well as his "allies". He cannot visit me himself, because he's in jail (for another felony, BTW), but one day two women stood in front of my door. I presume neighbors buzzed them in, and I opened the door because I thought them to be Jehova's Witnesses (I love to chit-chat with them). One woman was middle-aged, the other was elderly. The middleaged woman was a large matron taller than me by a foot at least. She looked like an elementary school teacher. As a kid I always felt intimidated by tall women. And nearly all my teachers were of that size and had a loud barking voice. -- And when the matron introduced herself as "a friend of Mr. X.'s" I felt myself shrink again. She must have known that the name of the man would make me feal uneasy. At least. I didn't know what to do. So I begged the women in. A mistake, as I admitted seconds later. Well, there were these two women in my study, calling me a liar, Mr. X. a victim of himself and asking me to take my statement back. They really dared this, all smiling maternally at me. "I mean, how old were you? 17? 18?" -- "Just sixteen." I replied, ice-cold. "It was August 3rd and the end of my childhood". Then the woman asked me questions like: "Was the intercourse consentual?" -- "No, it wasn't." -- "So why didn't you defend yourself?!" These are the questions an abuse victim/survivor likes most. But while being emotionally probed by these women, I noted into my memory: She lives in I. and has known him for two years. I tried to get to know more about her. "What is your occupation?" I asked. She didn't answer. She told me some useless helper-syndrom stuff, about working with people being victims of themselves, about perp/victim exchange and other rubbish. She reminded me, that repression is no solution. I did not reply anything. I do not repress nothing. But that's not there business. "Do you have my phone number?" I asked, grabbing a pen and a paper as if I wanted to jot it down for them. "Yes, I have. I got it from your old school in D. Together with your address." That cannot be true, I thought, because they send all their reunion stuff to my parents addy. They don't have my current one. But my blood froze in that moment. Three days ago my dad had mentioned that an old school colleage, X.Y. would be contacting me. He had given her my phone number. I was kind of surprised because I didn't remember anyone from school bearing that name. And it was a small school. So while being on these women's verbal torture table I recorded all this stuff for someone who might be interested. A couple of months later I received a letter postmarked I. I send it back to the sender's address, which I wrote down before posting the letter again. Several months later I received a postcard, written directly from a penal institution with the plea: "I need your help. Please open and read the letter I am going to send you." I felt really bad. There were moments when I felt more like a victim than a survivor. Then the letter arrived. It bore no sender address, but the handwriting on the envelope was the same. And the mistakes in the addy. Well, now was the time for my little revenge. I pulled what I had jotted down after the women left, crying and trembling. I rewrote it, adjusted grammar and spelling and added the information I know about the matron's name, because it surely was her who send the first letter, the one I refused. I made clear that these women, who harrassed me in a pseudo-compassionate way got my address through some ruse and wanted me to commit a felony: They wanted me to lie in court, making me the perp this time. X.Y. got probation for the rape of me, Rosemary, but he committed another crime during probation time, which caused him to be jailed. Slam! *sound of prison doors closing* He, harebrained as he is, hold the opinion that if I take back my statement he would get free. I don't know if he really expects me to do something, because that would get me into jail for faking a crime, perjury and so forth. I also wrote that I wanted to know when the inmate X.Y. will be released. And then I mailed the whole stuff to the person who might be interested. The district attorney. I know her, she's an okay woman. Much like Carver, I'd say. She get's the bad guys where they belong. So I think I would have reacted similar to Beatrice. The only difference: I still have some confidence in "the law". That's because I know certain people: A police investigator of Goren's quality, a persecutor of Carver's... so in her place, provided that I hadn't done anything to prevent my father from abusing me, I would dismiss that whole blackmailing thing as unprofessional and quite dangerous and turn to the police immediately. With that evidence he would be indicted, sentenced and soon be serving the sentence. That would help a lot. If Beatrice had done this, maybe there'd be a voice in her head, saying: "But he's your father…" These are the kind of voices we shouldn't listen to. These were also the arguments presented by my unwanted visitors: He is a human being like you. He is a lonely man. He never wanted to hurt you... -- Nice try. But it doesn't work with me. You can intimidate me, you can make me recall experiences I whish I never had, but you cannot prevent me from being mean, if I want to. Homo Homini Lupus, that's what I'm thinking now. I generally dispise that cynical proverb, but sometimes I want to be a wolf too, not a lamb. Another thing that makes me feel creepy... the similarities between Tommy and me. When I was watching "Death Roe" for the first time I noticed his scene-stealing during the cooking show. And I recognized I had acted similiarily during film classes. I was a good comedian, our acting coach noticed that, but he restrained me somehow, to give the others a chance. When we were filming instead of stage-acting we were often given the opportunity to ad-lib. And I tried to steal the other's scenes, especially the last ones during a clip. Sometimes to the others' approval ("Cool!!!"), sometimes their disapproval ("Ewwww...what are you doing here?") I was just like Tommy flambéing Josh's perfect crepes. I was always funny, sometimes hilarious, but being funny in an overblown way I sometimes ruined the whole scene, shot in a more sophisticated kind of humor. -- And to make things worse, Tommy appeals to me. He looks much like the guys I dated in the past years, and we've got certain things in common. Well, I'm also a glutton, and I've got an enormous sexual appetite, too. That fact gave me much to think during the past years, as I was fearing I might become a sex offender, too. I read once, that nearly all abusive people once were abused, too. I don't know for sure if there are female sex offenders, but presumably they are. But luckiliy I found out that I am not that kind of person. If there's even a small sign that the person of my interest does not want this or that I stop, at once. But, regretfully, I am a very icky cook myself. During cooking classes (yeah, I tried several jobs) I once had six portions of a dessert for myself. My instructor caught me licking the spoon I was also using to ladle out the mousse. Zero problemo to me, as I am a glutton I happily indulged in five extra helpings. And yes, I have cut myself and continued to cut the food, after merely rinsing (not desinfecting) the knife. I have thrown stuff into the pot which has fallen to the floor and my test whether the fat is hot enough is spitting into the pan. O my, that was a long post, hope you'll like to read it all...
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Post by Cassie on Jan 5, 2006 18:35:15 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing Rosemary, that’s some pretty scary stuff…. Especially being harassed after the fact. A few years back, I had a bizarre incident., and as I told my tale to the police. The one cop kept saying, “why did you do that, you should have done that“. Finally the other cop said. “She did fine, just the way she handle the situation. She got out of it alive, and no one else will be harm by him.“ Anyway, the same thing goes for you. You did fine! No one else is going to be hurt by him As for Beatrice, I can’t blame the girl wanting to seek revenge against her father. I guess where I struggle with the episode is her making goggle eyes at Goren. I know two girls that had incest in their life. And they struggle with self esteem, and had a hard time making eye contact with others. That scene Beatrice reminds me more of a girl that I used to work with years ago. Whenever a man came into the our small office. She would be like Beatrice, center of the universe, look at me, throwing herself at them. (me, I was like Eames, chopped liver) She had shared with me . That her father completely neglected her growing up. He worked and paid the bills, but he never ever noticed her. She had said if she where to fall face down in front of her dad drunk, he would continue to watch the baseball game. I guess because of her, I was expecting more of that kind of background for Beatrice when she threw herself at Goren. Anyway, Goren is cute and all, but he ain’t that cute, no man is……and Yeah, yeah I know if the shoe was on the other foot, all men could be saying that about woman too.
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Post by rosemary on Jan 5, 2006 21:21:26 GMT -5
I feel it‘s good that we can also share our private (and sometimes dark) experiences while discussing the eps. I hope you‘re alright, Cassie. So am I. I only have to take care of my current relationship. Mr. Rosemary has been living now in another city for the last three months, and I‘m kind of afraid he‘ll have walked out on me by the next year. A wise German proverb says: A fire does not keep you warm if it‘s too far away. Yes, that way Beatrice was giving Goren the eye (de dicto!) was kind of weird. But I think if Goren would walk into my kitchen I would stare at him like that, too. But I agree, that‘s not the point. It‘s weird and somehow creepy. Maybe the writers inserted this to underline her being hypersexual. I don‘t know anything about such consequences of abuse, but I could imagine they exist. I didn‘t turn hypersexual. During the first years after „the incident“ (how I hate to call it this way, but that‘s the way officials refer to the rape) I avoided male company, eye contact too, and I began to dress in a way that was quite *hadith*. The way a devout Muslim woman is supposed to dress. Many, many years later I developed a normal sexuality. Some people even call my behavior not appropriate for a rape survivor. They tend to see it as evidence that the damn incident was consentual. O my, they have no idea. It‘s gotta be the right guy, it‘s gotta be the right time, and if you want it your past shouldn‘t kill your lust. However, there are two words I‘ll never be able to stand during intercourse, just guess why.
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Post by LOCIfan on Jan 6, 2006 1:25:59 GMT -5
I didn't think Beatrice was drawn well at all as a character. She was some strange hybrid of a victim of incest that didn't make a lot of sense to me. In my experience, which sadly is quite a bit, incest victims tend to either be hyper-sexual around members of the opposite sex or extremely shy. Beatrice was a combination of both -- which suited the plot and story, but didn't do justice to the character.
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Post by rosemary on Jan 6, 2006 9:49:40 GMT -5
ITA with all posters who claimed that Beatrice‘s character is somehow ill-conceived. I have not problems with her plotting revenge while still being abused, but I think the writers should a) either have made her a shy intimidated girl avoiding male company and being afraid of physical intimacy or b) a kind of Nicole Wallace-like sexual omnivore incapable of loving somebody with a penchant towards humiliating men. BTW, to me Beatrice looks very much like a child, even while flirting (or what is it?) with Goren. She‘s small, so am I. She has a baby face, so have I. But I think my awareness of how much I look like a child made me develop that stern way of staring into people‘s eyes of mine, as well as the matching voice, sounding almost masculine from time to time. And one last thing... I don‘t understand why Tommy used his own little hand-operated mincer to grind up Josh. He‘s got lots of connctions with deliverers, surely there are also butchers among them. They have large, industrial mincers to grind up meat, I‘ve seen such a thing, strong enough to grind up a large animal (or a human being) in whole, with the bones and everything. It shouldn‘t be too difficult to get access to the room where the mincer is kept. It would merely take minutes to drop Josh‘s corpse off there -- the machine would do the rest. But Tommy used his own mincer. And he must have cut Josh in quite handy pieces before grinding him up. Difficult task, compared with the decapitating of the little pig. I think it‘s possible. But I think it would take a whole night to get that all done. Of course, the question remains, what he did with the Josh hamburger. I think that in early 20th century Germany a butcher named Harmann murdered several male prostitutes and cut them in pieces, too. As far as I remember he partially threw the bones into the nearby river, partially flushed the remains down the toilet. Well, he got himself caught, that demonstrates how useful this method was.
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Post by maherjunkie on Jan 7, 2006 11:46:05 GMT -5
[ Some people even call my behavior not appropriate for a rape survivor. They tend to see it as evidence that the damn incident was consentual. ] ] Tell them to GO SCREW.Hope the next year is better for you.
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Post by jethro on Jan 25, 2006 0:18:47 GMT -5
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Post by comedykicks on Jan 25, 2006 11:01:54 GMT -5
Its rough to lose a brother so I will keep his family in my thoughts and hope they find peace during this hard time. Edited to remove story link. Its been posted in another thread.
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psychochik
Silver Shield Investigator
Ha-Ha
Posts: 191
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Post by psychochik on Jan 25, 2006 13:21:05 GMT -5
I was truly saddened when I read that this morning. He was my favorite of the Penn brothers, he was awesome in Resevoir Dogs. MAN !!! R.I.P. bro !!
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Jan 25, 2006 15:27:56 GMT -5
I think that Tommy used his own equipment b/c he was confident about not being found out, he thought he covered all the bases, but neglected to see the screws. He was terrified when he realized what Beatrice had on him. I also don't think she overused her new-found power. Tommy had hurt her for so long, she was out to pay him back a little & what better way then taking his restaurant from him & reducing him to prep work? Talk about getting your balls handed to you on a silver platter .
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Post by comedykicks on Jan 25, 2006 16:20:53 GMT -5
I thought the punishment wasn't severe enough. I mean with all that meat grinding equipment, she could have netured Daddy, but than again, that just might be me with dark thoughts.
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