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Post by Patcat on Mar 27, 2005 22:32:06 GMT -5
An episode clearly based on the recent case case in Topeka, Kansas, and one that made me uncomfortable in its explicitness. But I think that was one of the points of the episode, to give some idea of the horror of the crimes.
We finally got a chance to see Carver at work. And I liked the way Deakins worked to protect his detectives.
I thought the episode showed the Goren/Eames partnership at its best. There were a couple of moments where the story might have taken a turn into an exploration of the Goren psyche, but it subtly (and wisely, I think) turned away from it. It was a pleasant change to see Goren use his ability to get into someone's head for a positive result.
Patcat
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Shadow
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 77
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Post by Shadow on Mar 27, 2005 23:01:07 GMT -5
Very simply put........................... I Liked this episode....thought Vincent looked good, and that the old Goren was really starting to come alive again..just like the chemistry being revived between Bobby and Eames.. Goren showed us he wasn't always right and can also make mistakes....and, he was quick to admit that they had arrested the wrong man. Further investigation led them to the real "Jake" behind the murders. The father of the accused, a police officer with psychological problems, with no love for his son. Goren showed empathy again in this episode revealing the human element that resides deep within the detective. I was also glad to see more of Carver and Deakins in this one.. All in all...I simply enjoyed watching this one...and found it easier to follow. Another viewing will be in order for me as usual to see things I missed the first time. The writing seems to have taken a turn for the better the last couple of episodes...at least in my estimation anyway, and I look forward to another new one next week. Shadow
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Post by pompusone on Mar 27, 2005 23:09:57 GMT -5
I have to admit that I've been dozing off during CI this season. This one kept me riveted. Everything about this one worked for me.
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Post by LOCIfan on Mar 28, 2005 1:01:58 GMT -5
Loved this episode!!! Althought, for me, there was nowhere to go but up after last week's ep. Still, the way this one focussed on the central relationship between the father/son and really explored the psychology of it -- that's what I expect from LOCI.
I also enjoyed how we got to see Goren both empathetic -- with Keith -- and furious -- with Frank. Best of both world's and we got the BANG when the "hammer" came down on Frank's head.
Great bit of plain old-fashioned police work in linking the killer to the subway stations all the victims transferred at.
I also agree that this one could've gone too far into Goren-angst with him digging into his own father issues too explicitly. This one walked a perfect line, IMO. We got just the right amount with Goren saying "Do you think you're the first son afraid of turning into his imperfect father?" and then, after Keith turns on his dad, the way Goren says to Frank "He's free of you. He cast you out of his head. Out of his head." That last "out of his head" spoke volumes.
It was great to see Goren relish the take down so much. It was Goren's righteous anger at its best.
The graphic nature of the crime was horrific, but was even more horrifying after hearing the girl gasping for breath and pleading for her life to the 911 operator. The 911 operator's reaction was very good. I also thought the gory details weren't gratuitous, but were necessary to the plot. The nature of the murders needed to be specific and unusual enough so that it would be significant that two people might have the same sex fetish, and it was necessary for the audience to get that information.
Loved the teamwork between Goren and Eames. The felt very much in stride and in tune to one another on this one -- even in their agreement that they'd taken a wrong turn by getting Keith indicted.
Episodes like this are why I keep watching the show, even during dry spells. I'm a happy LOCI fan.
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Post by Sirenna on Mar 28, 2005 9:54:08 GMT -5
This episode wasn't bad. I'm with NicoleMarie in that it would have been better as an SVU episode. I liked how the police team all worked together. Carver's and Deakins lines sometimes seem thrown in and token as a way to give some good actors a little more screen time. Here it all worked to add to the story.
Hate the thought that htere are people out there who might have been taking notes on tying people up, though.
Season four is definately creepier.
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Post by det1stgrade on Mar 28, 2005 10:35:40 GMT -5
I liked this episode for the way Goren/Eames handled themselves and their interaction; liked Deakins sticking up for his detectives. I liked the matter-of-fact way that explicit details were dealt with w/o emotion: they were just "facts of the case."
I remember as an 11 year old kid, (back in '71), going on vacation w/ my parents & getting a tour of Parker Center in L.A. where my far-elder 2nd cousin, Lt. Det. Donald Weese was a homicide detective. (Oblivious to whether my sister and I even KNEW the "facts of life" yet) he showed us bloody murder weapons, semen-stained sheets from a rape scene, photos of a decapitated woman victim, all very matter-of-factly; the realities of the gore he faced every day.
It was a fascinating look at real detectives at work, which made a lasting impression. (He was very handsome, w/ brown curly hair, BTW) -- and, now that I think of it, COULD be the cause of my obsession w/ our fabulous Det. Goren.
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Post by Techguy on Mar 28, 2005 14:33:35 GMT -5
I agree that Season 4 has been a whole lot darker than the previous 3--darker and creepier in the nature of the crimes and the MOs of the perps.
I leave it to viewers of SVU to ascertain whether or not "Shibboleth" would be more appropriate for that show. I will say that I found it riveting, and includes my favorite Det. Goren moment of really nailing the guilty party to the wall when he brings his silver hammer of righteous indignation down on Frank's head. Thankfully, "Shibboleth" didn't go off on another journey into Goren's psyche about his own relationship with his father. The one line to Keith referencing his relationship to Frank is quite sufficient to get the point across about Goren's own struggles in that area.
I very much liked the involvement of all four main cast members. Deakins and Carver have the most lines and screen time that I can recall in an episode. I liked the fact that it is Deakins who says "Shibboleth" when Goren points out how both Keith and Frank articulate the t's in their speech. And the scenes of Carver before the grand jury provide just enough departure from the usual CI locales without overdoing it in the courtroom.
Overall, I was very satisfied with the story and unfolding of who did what to whom. There are some especially graphic and disturbing scenes and photos of murder victims, but I feel they were necessary to the story and not just gratuitous add-ons.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Mar 28, 2005 14:41:42 GMT -5
Well, once again, Stephanie Sengupta does not disappoint! It's been a long while since I've wanted to rewatch an episode.*
LOCIfan has said a lot of the things I wanted to say. Another scene which spoke volumes to me about the dynamics of the Goren/Eames TEAM was in the medical examiner's office when it dawned on Goren what the ligature marks on Chloe's ankle meant. And Eames goes to his side.
The case may have worked on SVU as far as the detecting is concerned; it would have been an entirely different matter left in Casey Novak's hands. She doesn't have the Carver coolness to carry it off effectively.
*ETA: Even though it was obvious to me from the beginning that it was Kevin Conway's character who did the evils deeds from the way he was staring at Chloe. And that I recognized his voice when the 911 tape was played back. I remember him from one my favourite Briscoe episodes "Corruption".
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Post by Patcat on Mar 28, 2005 14:59:21 GMT -5
Kevin Conway was excellent in this episode, but he's one of those remarkable character actors who's never less than excellent. He's very good in the film GETTYSBURG--even in the midst of all the smoke, battle and fake beards he makes an impression as a tough sergeant.
Once again, a splendid bit of casting.
Patcat
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Mar 28, 2005 15:04:03 GMT -5
Well, this episode for me was a much-needed CI ray of light in this spring sampler of eps. I really liked this episode, from beginning, to climax, to ending. The story was attention grabbing, and not in the gratuitous manner (aka sleazy) “Death Roe” was. It was nice to see the array of emotions spreading over Goren’s face as he slowly put together the emotional gratification the killer was receiving while watching the victims humiliated and killed in that way. Goren truly abhors violence against women, as this episode demonstrates quite clearly. It was especially nice to see Carver at work and back in the court room. It’s been far too long since he’s gotten a chance to step into the spot-light, and I was thoroughly pleases to see him taking a more proactive role in the investigation. Deakins protectiveness of his detectives was also a nice touch. I’m grateful that they touched on Goren’s ability to identify with Keith (bad father’s influences and such) but then they pulled away. This allowed D’Onofrio to show some wonderful empathetic moments on his face, when with Keith. And some wonderful contemptuous, despising looks when he was with Frank. They hinted at a parallel, but went no further—which really made my evening! *grin* That, and the actor who played Frank(Kevin Conway) has always been one of my favorite “Bad Guy” actors. I recognize his voice almost before I even see his face, nearly always—I’ve seen him in so many things. I’ve liked him as a chill inducing scum-bag since I first saw him on “ In the Heat of the Night”. (wow, was THAT a long time ago or what?!) He truly is a AWESOME character actor, with a VERY recognizable voice. All in all, I really enjoyed this episode. Good case, excellent twists in the plot, well executed and the emotion was palpable. Also, great Goren/Eames interaction… which as always, REALLY makes my night! *big grin*
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Post by Summerfield on Mar 28, 2005 15:15:14 GMT -5
I can't add anything to what has already been said. I really liked this episode. After it was over, I thought WOW! Kevin Conway plays such a good bad guy.
I
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Post by LOCIfan on Mar 28, 2005 15:17:25 GMT -5
I'm with NicoleMarie in that it would have been better as an SVU episode. Sirenna, I find it interesting (and rather baffling) that you found THIS episode's subject matter more suited to SVU, but didn't feel that way about last week's episode. I've watched SVU sporadically so am familiar with the format/nature of the show, but I'm not an avid viewer. SVU and CI strike me as very different in the way in which they approach and deal with stories. Because they are so different, it seems difficult to suggest that this one "would've been better as an SVU episode." Rather like suggesting da Vinci's Mona Lisa would've been better if Picasso had painted it. So I guess I've got two questions for you. First, why do you believe SHIBBOLETH would've been better as an SVU episode? Second, why DIDN'T you feel similarly about DEATH ROE (where there was a living incest victim)? LOCIfan p.s. Not trying to put you on the spot, just find the variety of perspectives (especially those so different from my own) very interesting.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Mar 28, 2005 15:25:41 GMT -5
Oh man I *hate* being in the minority!!!!! I view Shibboleth from a very different view. I didn't see the psychological mystery. They used old fashioned detective work to solve the crime. It was just too evident that the son was not the killer. Goren used police method to locate another suspect, and then the new suspect basically gave himself away. Plus, the red hair gave him away. And the voice, the accent, the "Shibboleth", if you will. This was not CI fashion, it was regular detective work. They just cruised over everything. There was nothing meaty about this show to me at all. This show was too simple and uncomplicated. I was bored. I made the connection to dad right away. They caught the guy too fast, and you knew the son didn't do it because they kept showing the dad. The son alluded it was someone else too. The only real good thing I saw in this show was CI didn't make us trip over Goren's hang ups again. I nearly turned the TV off until I realized it wasn't going to go there again. I am a SVU watcher. In fact, SVU is my favorite L&O. This CI was one that should've been a SVU show. CI cannot handle these sort of crimes in the same manner as SVU. This season bugs me so much because it is creepier! I never could put my finger on why until lat night. On the positive, I haven't seen Carver be so lively in the courtrrom since season 1 in the good doctor. I feel like I'm harping but I don't mean to. I guess it's because I'm in the minority right now. I won't say no more, because I don't want no one mad at me and I don't want to sound like I'm harping.
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Post by goreneames on Mar 28, 2005 15:49:16 GMT -5
This episode was my favorite since Posthumous Collection. Yes, it was creepy, but the creepiness was explored and dissected in a very Criminal Intent fashion. Goren dug into the minds of both Keith and Frank, and came up with the pathologies that fueled both the crimes AND the son's demons. As for being "on to" the actual killer early. Yes, it seemed, from a gut level that Frank was the guilty one and not Keith, but I -- like Goren -- kept wondering WHY Keith acted as he did and HOW Goren would end up exonerating Keith and getting Frank on the hook (since there was essentially no evidence other than the 5-point DNA against him). Personally, I'm glad this wasn't an SVU episode, because it gave Goren such a meaty "criminal intent" to dig his analytical mind into. The classic Goren-y detective work was in the manner in which he unravelled the psychological aspects of the pathologies involved. Goren not only profiled and manipulated Jake, he also "profiled" and manipulated (though to a good outcome for the case and Keith) the son. That's far from "regular detective work." It's what Goren does best, and with a flair only Bobby has! It was great to see Goren being sympathetic to the son's distress and also able to direct his anger at the father's depravity. Also liked the way he worried about whether or not he provoked "Jake" into a near-kill by being too focused on getting him to communicate with them. Great how Eames immediately said Jake didn't need to be provoked into killing. They were great partners in this one. I found the pacing perfectly in line with the storytelling. The scenes dealing with Jake and his victims, or almost-victim, were extremely tense and they were followed by scenes where G & E were analyzing. Good pace. Not only not boring, but enthralling! The plot was twisted and twisty, and I felt like I was in step with Goren in unravelling the mystery. Not ahead of him, not behind him, but right there. Cudos to Stephanie Sengupta, the writer, Rene Balcer, D'Onofrio and the entire Criminal Intent team for a terrific, complex episode! ;D
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Post by goreneames on Mar 28, 2005 16:02:57 GMT -5
NikkiGreen,
Wanted to add that I agree wholeheartedly with you that Stephanie Sengupta doesn't disappoint. I've noticed that she wrote my ALL-TIME favorite CI episode (MALEDICTUS) and my second fave (COLD COMFORT).
Although SHIBBOLETH is very different from both those episodes, the thing that's similar is that I have a feeling of really getting to know Keith and Frank and what it must've been like for him growing up with the image of that picture in his head. I could practically SEE Keith's expression in the moment that he recognized the dead girl's picture in the newspaper as the same person in the photo that had burned itself into his psyche. The characters have real pasts.
Plus, the stories might hinge on intimate relationships, but they are also very grand, if that makes sense. Larger than life, but not. That probably makes even less sense.
Anyway, I wanted to give Ms. Sengupta props, because she does write consistently good episodes.
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