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Post by Patcat on Mar 28, 2005 16:13:39 GMT -5
Well, the story explained that Major Case was called in because the initial victim was found in an apartment complex where city hall bigwigs kept their mistresses. (Although Eames, displaying the toughness I've always liked about her, immediately told the other woman detective to rock the boat to get informaiton.)
It was a relatively straightforward story, but I think LOCI has a tendency to make cases too complicated. DEATH ROE was a good example of this. Both SHIBBOLETH and EX STASIS offered criminals with unusual intents, but ones that the episodes were able to examine with some depth. My great fear for SHIBBOLETH was that it would take a turn into Bobby's Batcave (mind you, as I've written before, I like trips into Bobby's Batcave, but it's nice not to always go there), or that it would develop that the father had been controlling the son. And I'm glad this one stayed fairly straight.
Patcat
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Post by NicoleMarie on Mar 28, 2005 16:52:04 GMT -5
So I guess I've got two questions for you. First, why do you believe SHIBBOLETH would've been better as an SVU episode? Second, why DIDN'T you feel similarly about DEATH ROE (where there was a living incest victim)? I know this question was for Sirennah but I'd like to take a crack at answering it. There are some especially graphic and disturbing scenes and photos of murder victims, but I feel they were necessary to the story and not just gratuitous add-ons. That's exactly why this should have been an SVU show. SVU can be graphic but SVU deals with sex crimes and crimes against children, so it is fitting for that particluar show. CI never used to be graphic or creepy like this. I guess I just can't tolerate watching two creepy shows at once. Plus, CI does not have the finesse to handle these kinds of crimes in the same manner. They did not have the energy or the dynamics to counter the creepiness. If a show is gonna be creepy, you need to counter it with energy and dynamics. The whole CI was creepy and uncountered. I also thought Death Roe should have been a SVU show. There would have been a better reaction to Death Roe had it been a SVU show as SVU develops those sort of storylines more accurately and more concisely. Death Roe is a good example of how CI does not have the depth or finesse for the really creepy. Ok, I really will hush now. I just wanted to detail my thoughts more.
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Post by falconia on Mar 28, 2005 17:54:42 GMT -5
I've just watched SHIBOLETH. I liked it very much for all the reasons already exposed by more knowledgeable forum members than myself.
The fact that it did not dwell on what you call so aptly "Bobby's Batcave", the complexities of the psiche displayed, which reminded me of one of my favorite LOCI epies, one that featured Brent Spiner as a man engaged in a deadly psychological game with his wife and kid.
I tend to agree it might have been more adequate to SVU, due to graphic content and subject matter, but it didn't bother me overmuch.
One thing, though. The very first post on the thread said it was clearly based on a real life case from Topeka, Kansas. Could anyone give me a little more info on the real case? Maybe bring the tale to the "Off Topic Forum", in the interest of form.
Thanks in advance,
Falc
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Post by Techguy on Mar 28, 2005 18:23:53 GMT -5
Falconia, for a very brief overview of BTK and how CI ripped the story from the headlines:
On Friday, February 25, 2005, the serial killer known as BTK was arrested in Park City, Kansas.
Dennis L. Rader was arrested in connection with 10 homicides that span over 31 years in the City of Wichita and Sedgwick County.
Like BBJ (Body by Jake) in "Shibboleth," BTK was a serial killer who murdered his victims by strangulation, taunted the police with clues to his identity, including photos and drivers licenses of his victims and re-surfaced after dropping off the radar for years.
There are more extensive news stories and reports if you need additinal information and want to take the time to do a more thorough search.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Mar 28, 2005 20:12:36 GMT -5
I also thought Death Roe should have been a SVU show. How could that be possible? "Death Roe" started out as an investigation into the murder of the food critic. And then the investigation made its way into the disappearance of the young chef.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Mar 28, 2005 21:03:47 GMT -5
How could that be possible? I detailed why on the Death Roe thread. And as I said, CI skimmed the surface of incest where SVU develops those sort of storylines more accurately and more concisely.
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Post by LOCIfan on Mar 28, 2005 22:15:05 GMT -5
LOCI is quite capable of exploring any pathological relationship accurately, in great detail and with sensitivity, whether or not it has to do with sex. The series has done it week in and week out over the course of nearly four full seasons. And they did so in SHIBBOLETH. The pathologies of Frank and Keith were explored, as was the impact of Frank's pathology on Keith's developing psyche. The manner in which Keith's sexuality, self-image, relationships with the rest of his family, women, and society were explored with accuracy and sensitivity. AND it was rolled up in a good story. From what I've seen of SVU, it has no monopoly on "finesse" when it comes to dealing with sexual pathologies, creepiness, or graphic/harrowing crimes. DEATH ROE was, in my view, a LOCI aberration. As far as SHIBBOLETH is concerned, I think it fit LOCI like a glove (and NOT the O.J. glove!) To me, seeing SHIBBOLETH'S story told by SVU would be like a Picasso version of the Mona Lisa. It might be interesting, but it wouldn't be THE Mona Lisa...
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Post by Observer2 on Mar 28, 2005 22:15:27 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this episode, for many of the reasons that have already been mentioned. One thing I especially like about this series is the quality of the partnership between Goren and Eames, so I really agree with Nikki’s comment, “...Another scene which spoke volumes to me about the dynamics of the Goren/Eames TEAM was in the medical examiner's office when it dawned on Goren what the ligature marks on Chloe's ankle meant. And Eames goes to his side." The reactions of the characters in that scene (the ME included), and throughout the episode, are among the reasons I disagree so strongly with NicoleMarie’s comment that this should have been an SVU show, that Criminal Intent, “...did not have the energy or the dynamics to counter the creepiness. If a show is gonna be creepy, you need to counter it with energy and dynamics...” I have to admit here that I don’t watch SVU that often – usually only to keep my sister company when she’s in the mood for that show. So I may have missed some episode where a different facet of Stabler’s character surfaced. But from what I’ve seen, for me, I’d much rather see Goren’s understanding, empathy and compassion than the rage-on-the-edge-of-losing-control that is all I ever seem to see in Stabler in reaction to horrific crimes. I’ve never seen that sick feeling in his face – the one you see in Goren’s face in that moment Nikki described – that would tell me that he really gets it, really has some sense of what a victim went through. I don’t find the overwrought energy and dynamics of SVU to be a helpful counterpoint to the horror of sexually-based crimes (though Finn is a solid bit of realistic strength in the midst of it all). I think the qualities we see in Shibboleth are much more appropriate ways to respond and to portray the subject of sexually-based crimes on television. It’s interesting, Techguy, how many parallels there are with the BTK case. Do you know the mode of strangulation that killer used? I had thought the use of initials might have come from that case, but that other aspects might have been based on an older pair of cases, in which two different killers used a method of tying the victims’ ankles to a cord around their throats so that they strangled themselves. It’s been years since I read about the cases, but I think there may have been a family relationship, and that the second killer had an obsession with the image from having seen it somehow as a youngster at the time of the first killings. (That may be muddled... as I said, it’s been years.) Anyway, they’re the only cases I’ve heard of that used that method of tying the victim. Did the BTK killer use that method, too? As others have mentioned, I loved how much we got to see all four regulars in this episode. The use of the Grand Jury, which comes in the middle of the show, instead of the trial, which would upstage Goren at the end, worked great as a way to let Carver shine in courtroom mode. I hope it’s something we’ll see again, from time to time. The blocking, especially in the segment with the psychologist, was excellent – Carver moving in close to intimidate the psychologist, then moving back to give the Grand Jury members a good view as the psychologist began to talk – combining with his strong delivery to give the impression that Carver is a highly skilled and formidable prosecutor. I also liked seeing both his and Deakins’ reactions to the nature of the crime. Sheridan, especially, gave a good portrayal of a cop who’s seen a lot over the years, but is not so hardened that there aren’t still cases that really get to him, including ones that he remembers sharply even after all these years. I remain impressed with an actor who can do so much with so little screen time. I have much more of a sense of Deakins than can be accounted for by words in the scripts. Overall, a strong episode that has already stood up well to a second viewing.
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Post by LOCIfan on Mar 28, 2005 22:25:00 GMT -5
I also liked seeing both his and Deakins’ reactions to the nature of the crime. Sheridan, especially, gave a good portrayal of a cop who’s seen a lot over the years, but is not so hardened that there aren’t still cases that really get to him, including ones that he remembers sharply even after all these years. I remain impressed with an actor who can do so much with so little screen time. I have much more of a sense of Deakins than can be accounted for by words in the scripts. I'm so glad someone singled out Deakins in this one. He was really wonderful. Sometimes I tend to take Deakins for granted. But you're absolutely right -- I, too, "have much more of a sense of Deakins than can be accounted for by words in the scripts."
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Post by NicoleMarie on Mar 28, 2005 22:31:39 GMT -5
I am in the minority in my views of Death Roe and Shibboleth.
I've stated my reasoning for liking or disliking those shows. We will just have to agree to disagree because I have nothing more to add to the discussion without repeating myself other than to say I firmly believe unless you are an avid viewer of SVU, my reasoning will not make sense to others: that CI skimmed the surface of these shows and SVU would not have. SVU would have given much greater depth than CI possibly could have.
I was quite disappointed in how CI handled the layers in both of these shows. I accepted the flaws of Death Roe but, I cannot accept the flaws of Shibboleth.
*shrugs*
I stand by my views.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Mar 28, 2005 22:44:16 GMT -5
I will touch on this though.
Goren is logic, Stabler is emotion. There are incomparable.
Stabler cannot be compared to Goren just as you cannot compare Logan to Goren. Both men operate on a different level. Stabler is of course more emotional than Goren but, that does not make him less of a detectiver than you have implied. Stabler instead takes the hard emotional road to catch a "perp" where Goren takes a cooler, more logical approach. Both men get the same exact results, just in very different ways.
And the understanding, empathy, and compassion is there.
I have seen the sick and panic and desperation in Stabler's face. I've seen it all of the SVU faces. I rarely see emotion from Goren. That is because emotion is not Goren's MO, it's Stablers. It's SVU's.
That is the difference in CI and SVU.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Mar 28, 2005 22:54:21 GMT -5
NicoleMarie, that's the great thing about this board. We don't have to agree. It's to be expected that not everyone will see eye to eye on a given subject. I am an avid viewer of SVU, and have seen every single episode. And I still can't see this as an episode to be handled by Stabler, Benson and Casey.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Mar 28, 2005 23:03:46 GMT -5
Thank you, Nikki! I was starting to feel bad but you cheered me up! I felt like a brat for being on the opposite side because I'm still kinda new and still learning my way around here and learning the other people here. (I think I'm way too paranoid and sensitive!) Thanks for the cheer up! MUUAH!
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Post by NikkiGreen on Mar 28, 2005 23:14:38 GMT -5
No problem, NicoleMarie. I'm glad you're feeling better. We all agree to disagree. Things would get boring, otherwise.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Mar 29, 2005 0:47:05 GMT -5
^_^
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