nick5oh
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 53
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Post by nick5oh on Sept 25, 2005 21:48:41 GMT -5
how do you figure he did any "switcharoo" about NW? You must have been listening to another soudntrack. it sounded to me he still thinks she's a psychopathic killer who can't be trusted around anyone, much less children.
That doesn't keep him from realizing that she, for completely narcissistic and delusional reasons, might do one decent thing, i.e. save this little girl from being poisoned by her father.
As for believing she must be punished for her crimes, isn't that what he was telling her, that she must face up to who she is, she must admit what she's done, she must go to jail? As someone else pointed out, she was out on bail for the "Great barrier" murders. And she did beat the rap earlier for the "Anti-Thesis" and "Person of Interest" murders.
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Post by janetcatbird on Sept 25, 2005 21:49:24 GMT -5
Thing is, Goren was not Nicole's buddy--he needed her help to nail Buttwipe Father, but he certainly wasn't going to allow her to walk away (not intentionally). He said himself, the way she could help get rid of Buttwipe was to confess and serve her time.
I'm not trying to be ugly, Shadow and NicoleMarie, but what made you think Goren was getting chummy with her? Even the big scene at the library, when he acknowledged that she was trying to redeem herself, seemed to show more restrained frustration than sympathy. When she got away with Gwen, his truck-thump showed that that was the very thing he didn't want to happen.
Personally, I didn't like the breathless, shaky voice in Nicole's phone message to Goren. Maybe they were trying to continue the track of scared/upset/trying to fix things but just can't cut it, but I would have expected a steadier, resigned tone. But that's just me.
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Post by Patcat on Sept 25, 2005 21:51:44 GMT -5
Well, Goren didn't let her go--he was very clear in his confrontation with her that she had to pay for her crimes, and that he didn't believe she could be redeemed.
I liked this episode. I grant that Wallace's constant escapes are more than a bit much. But I loved the lovely moral quandries the writers created for the audience in this episode. Indeed, it's what I often love about LOCI, the fact that good people do bad things and bad people do good things.
And I enjoyed the way in which Logan was integrated in the episode.
I feel almost justified in voting for her continued existence.
Patcat
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Post by janetcatbird on Sept 25, 2005 21:54:23 GMT -5
See, now I REALLY REALLY don't want her to come back. They've done a good job recovering from last year's bungle, a fifth time would be overkill to put it mildly. I like the episode, but I don't want this to become Nicole's Neverending Story.
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Post by trisha on Sept 25, 2005 21:55:50 GMT -5
Ha ha! The three of us were basically typing the same thing at the same time ;D Check it out, 4 posts within 4 mins of each other!
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Post by trisha on Sept 25, 2005 21:56:43 GMT -5
See, now I REALLY REALLY don't want her to come back. They've done a good job recovering from last year's bungle, a fifth time would be overkill to put it mildly. I like the episode, but I don't want this to become Nicole's Neverending Story. Oh, me either!
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Post by NicoleMarie on Sept 25, 2005 22:12:15 GMT -5
I swiped this from another board, with permission. It concerns the first three Nicole shows. I'm posting it because some said she beat the A-T and POI murder raps. She beat those raps as Elizabeth Hitchens, not as Nicole Wallace. I'm rather confused as how she's walking around as Nicole Wallace now after reading this post. Nicole Wallace is overrated as a villain. And here's a plothole in "Anti-Thesis".
All that back and forth "You're Nicole" "No, I'm Elizabeth" "You're Nicole" "No, I'm Elizabeth". Couldn't they have just faxed her photo to the place the real Elizabeth Hitchens used to work at in Australia and say "Hey, IS this Elizabeth or some broad pretending to be her?" Or find the real Elizabeth's family, fax a photo and ask "Hey, IS this Elizabeth or not?" Unless she was Elizabeth's identical twin, I THINK that would pretty much get them the correct ID that they needed.
PLUS, Nicole was in jail in Thailand, as Nicole Wallace, not Elizabeth. Why didn't MCS get some fingerprints from THailand to see if the fingerprints matched their split personality suspect? It was so solveable that it was utterly ridiculous. All that "if you're really her you would know X and Y.." Just fax the prints or photos...so easy!
And some more plotholes in the storyline concering the "A person of interest" and "Great Barrier" episodes.
When Nicole popped back up in "A Person of Interest", they could have got the same information to get her real identity. They could have gotten information about the real Nicole faxed to them from Australia. Her high school, her medical records. The Aussies wanted her too because, 1, her stolen identity as Elizabeth, 2, her murder of her daughter, which was pointed out in "Great Barrier" The Aussies would have worked with the USA to get Nicole extradited back to Oz. They could have gotten the necessary information about the real Elizabeth from England too to compare to know for certain Nicole was pretending to be Elizabeth. It would have been alot simpler than the goofy set up trap using the anthrax booster. And again, another missed opportunity to get the identity information from Thailand.
Now for the holes in "Great Barier", the one ep with the most holes so far! Nicole acquired USA citizenship as Elizabeth Hitchens, as Gavin Hitchens' wife right? And she was tried as Nicole Wallace but found not guilty cos the jury believed she was Elizabeth Hitchens, right? Since she's not really a legal citizen, wouldn't the not guilty verdict be set aside? And how can she be "legally" going by Nicole Wallace now, not Elizabeth Hitchens? Wouldn't that open her up to being retried or deported? And shouldn't they now deport her based on the false citizenship? Or just by going by Nicole Wallace now, cos she kept saying she WASN'T Nicole Wallace? And why didn't they deport Nicole back to Austrlia tto face her daughters murder?The simple legalities are stretched here. ------------- As for saying Nicole "buddied" up to Goren, she played him like a fiiddle. I cannot believe he was fool enough to believe her bullshit that she's gonna change and face her crimes. Yeah, "See ya, sucker!" She had no intention of facing her crimes. If she had, she wouldn't have jumped bail. Ands what about her daughters murder? She should be deported back to Australia to face that murder rap as well. The attemps to soften Nicole and get the audience to like her are just making me hate her more. I'm totally disgusted. What's next? Goren and Nicole get married? And Shadow: Having a cow is too minor a reaction to this show. I gave it another chance after that "No Exit" show but after this, hasta la jolta CI!
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Post by Jefferaldo on Sept 25, 2005 22:15:26 GMT -5
GREAT EPISODE! I have loved all of the Nicole story lines. They are interesting and take many twists, just as this one did. I'm sure Bobby's behaviour will be explained in a later ep but I will post more later, busy.
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Post by Techguy on Sept 25, 2005 22:22:20 GMT -5
Well, I'm disappointed but not surprised that Nicole escapes justice yet again. Enough is enough.
First, to backtrack. I never for one minute got the impression that Det. Goren was going soft or getting chummy with Nicole that he "let her get off." What disturbs me about this episode is how Nicole is out on bail in the first place, given all the crimes she has committed. What part of "flight risk" doesn't the DA and the court understand? Sure, this is TV, but there has to be some basis in fact for the basic premise, and Nicole getting the chance to fly the coop again is just too much soapy nonsense for me to accept.
And granted, I lack the psychological expertise or background to assess the likelihood of Nicole's epiphany. But as a "layman" my reaction to this development is, I seriously doubt someone as damaged and warped as Nicole has a chance to honestly confront what she has done and take responsibility for her actions. She deserves--and NEEDS--punishment if there is any hope of her achieving any kind of redemption. But she seems beyond that, so this episode just didn't strike the right notes for me in this regard. Then again, my anti-Nicole bias might be rearing up and blinding me so I can't objectively review this episode on its own merits.
I give the acting in this episode an B, and I agree Logan was integrated into MCS very well. But the basic foundation of the story, the ongoing Houdini-like qualities of Nicole, gets a great big giant F. There is NO way to soften or sugar coat this for me.
My tape of this episode hopefully will self-destruct within 24 hours. Either that or it gets recycled for something else more deserving of being saved. No kidding. Oh well, there's always next week...
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Post by Jefferaldo on Sept 25, 2005 22:30:11 GMT -5
I swiped this from another board, with permission. It concerns the first three Nicole shows. I'm posting it because some said she beat the A-T and POI murder raps. She beat those raps as Elizabeth Hitchens, not as Nicole Wallace. I'm rather confused as how she's walking around as Nicole Wallace now after reading this post. Nicole Wallace is overrated as a villain. And here's a plothole in "Anti-Thesis".
All that back and forth "You're Nicole" "No, I'm Elizabeth" "You're Nicole" "No, I'm Elizabeth". Couldn't they have just faxed her photo to the place the real Elizabeth Hitchens used to work at in Australia and say "Hey, IS this Elizabeth or some broad pretending to be her?" Or find the real Elizabeth's family, fax a photo and ask "Hey, IS this Elizabeth or not?" Unless she was Elizabeth's identical twin, I THINK that would pretty much get them the correct ID that they needed.
PLUS, Nicole was in jail in Thailand, as Nicole Wallace, not Elizabeth. Why didn't MCS get some fingerprints from THailand to see if the fingerprints matched their split personality suspect? It was so solveable that it was utterly ridiculous. All that "if you're really her you would know X and Y.." Just fax the prints or photos...so easy!
And some more plotholes in the storyline concering the "A person of interest" and "Great Barrier" episodes.
When Nicole popped back up in "A Person of Interest", they could have got the same information to get her real identity. They could have gotten information about the real Nicole faxed to them from Australia. Her high school, her medical records. The Aussies wanted her too because, 1, her stolen identity as Elizabeth, 2, her murder of her daughter, which was pointed out in "Great Barrier" The Aussies would have worked with the USA to get Nicole extradited back to Oz. They could have gotten the necessary information about the real Elizabeth from England too to compare to know for certain Nicole was pretending to be Elizabeth. It would have been alot simpler than the goofy set up trap using the anthrax booster. And again, another missed opportunity to get the identity information from Thailand.
Now for the holes in "Great Barier", the one ep with the most holes so far! Nicole acquired USA citizenship as Elizabeth Hitchens, as Gavin Hitchens' wife right? And she was tried as Nicole Wallace but found not guilty cos the jury believed she was Elizabeth Hitchens, right? Since she's not really a legal citizen, wouldn't the not guilty verdict be set aside? And how can she be "legally" going by Nicole Wallace now, not Elizabeth Hitchens? Wouldn't that open her up to being retried or deported? And shouldn't they now deport her based on the false citizenship? Or just by going by Nicole Wallace now, cos she kept saying she WASN'T Nicole Wallace? And why didn't they deport Nicole back to Austrlia tto face her daughters murder?The simple legalities are stretched here. ------------- As for saying Nicole "buddied" up to Goren, she played him like a fiiddle. I cannot believe he was fool enough to believe her bullshit that she's gonna change and face her crimes. Yeah, "See ya, sucker!" She had no intention of facing her crimes. If she had, she wouldn't have jumped bail. Ands what about her daughters murder? She should be deported back to Australia to face that murder rap as well. The attemps to soften Nicole and get the audience to like her are just making me hate her more. I'm totally disgusted. What's next? Goren and Nicole get married? And Shadow: Having a cow is too minor a reaction to this show. I gave it another chance after that "No Exit" show but after this, hasta la jolta CI! You make it sound so simple to extradite someone to Australia. They have NO physical evidence proving that Nicole did the murder. They just KNOW she did it. And anyway, what's the point of extraditing her to Australia? Even if she is convicted the max she'll probably do in Aus is 8-10 years. Also, Nicole was aquitted of the murders from A-T and PoI so setting that aside, there is only the murder from Great Barrier which was carried out by Ella, and since she is dead, there is no way to prove theat Nicole manipulated her to do the murder. That is why they needed Ella's help to apprehend Nicole.
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Post by LOCIfan on Sept 25, 2005 22:50:16 GMT -5
I'm impressed that they managed to take the Nicole Wallace story in a new direction. I agree with those who felt Goren wasn't excusing her behavior. He believes she's a dangerous psycho killer, and said what he needed to say to her so she wouldn't continue entertaining delusions of a "normal" family life.
It is getting a little old having Nicole fly the coop. I'd be fine if this was the last we see of Nicole.
It's great to have new LOCIs back on Sundays!!!!!
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Post by NicoleMarie on Sept 25, 2005 22:53:08 GMT -5
Jefferaldo,
To repeat: I did not write the part of the post in italics. It is from another board, copied with permission.
Good gravy! The point of extraditing her back to Australia is to make her pay for at least one of her crimes. She is wanted in Australia for the murder of the child, MCS had her, they could send her back and get her out of their hair. LOL!! And agaiin, they could have recharged her with the A-T and POI murders based on her false citizenship in Great Barrier.
The reason I posted the part in italics is because Nicole is not legally a citizen, she gained citizenship as Elizabeth Hitchens Haynes, not as Nicole Wallace. How can she be going by Nicole Wallace now? Having aquired USA citizenship illegally, the A-T and POI murder aquittals would be set aside. [/quote]
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nick5oh
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 53
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Post by nick5oh on Sept 25, 2005 22:55:04 GMT -5
Re; the supposed plot holes
In AT, she was being held for a work visa violation, the miffed dean of Hudson U. having fired her. Since the dean soon changes her mind, and Hudson's lawyer applies for a writ of Habeas Corpus (which can be granted in a matter of hours), the cops have very little time to ascertain NW's identity via fingerrpints. Notwithstanding the time difference between NY and OZ or Thailand (12-15 hours), even under the best of circumstances it can take days to ascertain identities even when requesting prints. etc from another state in the US. So, I don't see much stretching of reality in that regard in this episode.
In POI, they do arrest her, they do ascertain her actual identity, and she does get carted off to jail for a murder trial.
Offscreen, she got her trial, and her husband's enormous wealth was put in the service of getting her acquitted for the murders committed in AT and POI. Gee, does that kind of thing NEVER happen??? You can probably assume he also used his wealth to get around the citizenship issue.
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nick5oh
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 53
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Post by nick5oh on Sept 25, 2005 23:02:21 GMT -5
her acquittals should be set aside why?
It's prety ludicrous to be having these technical discussions about a fictional drama, but if you insist...
1) we don't know under what name she was tried. I'd assume the DA would charge her under all her aliases, just to be prudent. And once acquitted, she's acquitted. Period. You can't set aside an acquittal because the DA failed to ascertain the defendant's real identity.
2) Extradition to Oz. Since there is no extradition request from Oz, you can't simply extradite a US citizen to a foreign country "just because". Your argument's just too ridiculous to comment on.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Sept 25, 2005 23:06:14 GMT -5
When Goren did the internet search for Australian women in Thai prisons, he found Nicole had been there. They should have already had her files in hand before arresting her. They had plenty of time to get the files before they arrested her or switched the locks. If they had just gotten the files in the first place, they wouldn't have had to have bothered with the locks. And she still attained citizenship illegally. She was found not guilty because the jury believed, or was bought, to believe Nicole was Elizabeth Hitchens. Now Nicole is going by Nicole.... And couldn't the detectives to promise Gavin not to charge him if he admits he bought her "citizenship", which would then make her subject to A-T and POI murder charges again? (Nick, I didn't see the second post, but, I'm leaving this up anyway for others to comment on too.)
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