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Post by NicoleMarie on Sept 25, 2005 23:10:50 GMT -5
her acquittals should be set aside why? It's prety ludicrous to be having these technical discussions about a fictional drama, but if you insist... 1) we don't know under what name she was tried. I'd assume the DA would charge her under all her aliases, just to be prudent. And once acquitted, she's acquitted. Period. You can't set aside an acquittal because the DA failed to ascertain the defendant's real identity. 2) Extradition to Oz. Since there is no extradition request from Oz, you can't simply extradite a US citizen to a foreign country "just because". Your argument's just too ridiculous to comment on. Geez, don't get snitty. I thought people liked in depth, analyitical discussions so that's why I brought this up. I'm still stuck on the citizenship issue. I'm questioning why didn't they get the adequate information in the first place, then, she woiuld have been extradited, with reason. Um, arguements? I'm asking questions! Ridiculous? Again, I'm asking questions!
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Leonore
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 145
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Post by Leonore on Sept 25, 2005 23:19:58 GMT -5
I liked the episode (and I was prepared for the worst!). I was hoping that Logan's first arrest in Major Case would be NW. Goren and Eames looked relaxed, healthy and hot on the case. They followed the evidence to exactly where the dad wanted them to--up into Nicole's past deeds.
Goren made it plain that Nicole would never be normal, that she couldn't raise Gwen without killing her sooner or later.
I thought the phone message to Goren at the end was telling. Eames went to try to trace the call (so they're not just letting her go). Goren, through all of these episodes, has been peeling away her lies, her aliases, her defenses. Like an onion, the layers are coming off, even Nicole in her message recognizes that she can't keep the girl (You've taken that away from me Bobby).
I'll have to watch it again. The scene where Goren and Eames were talking to the hotel clerk looked very much like the downstairs lobby of a place I stay when I'm in New York. I know it's been used in the original Law & Order several times and it is located in Chelsea.
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Post by jethro on Sept 25, 2005 23:31:19 GMT -5
When Goren did the internet search for Australian women in Thai prisons, he found Nicole had been there... Obviously there is presumption that (1) there were even fingerprints to be had from Thailand and (2) the legal system works the same way in all other countries as it does in the US where one is presumed innocent until proven guilty, etc.
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Post by LOCIfan on Sept 25, 2005 23:39:27 GMT -5
And she still attained citizenship illegally. She was found not guilty because the jury believed, or was bought, to believe Nicole was Elizabeth Hitchens. Now Nicole is going by Nicole.... And couldn't the detectives to promise Gavin not to charge him if he admits he bought her "citizenship", which would then make her subject to A-T and POI murder charges again? NicoleMarie, we didn't see all the technical legal stuff on screen, but Carver, Goren and Eames knew she was Nicole Wallace and also went by Elizabeth Hitchens. Aliases are very common with defendants. As a matter of course she would've been charged under any and all names she'd been known to use. Once acquitted, there is no "setting aside" the verdict, as jeopardy has attached. Trying her again on the same charges, regardless of what name she's going by, would violate double jeopardy. LOCI got it right on the legal stuff -- in the Wallace eps, anyway
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Post by Patcat on Sept 26, 2005 2:22:04 GMT -5
Carver wants to get her too, so it's not the DA's office that's the problem. She's made him look bad several times.
I do wonder where she came up with the million dollar bail money on this one.
Patcat
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Post by Cassie on Sept 26, 2005 3:53:43 GMT -5
I do wonder where she came up with the million dollar bail money on this one. I think her new beau payed her bail. Remember Nicole thanking Dr Chapel for standing by her. Before he proposed marriage to her
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Post by joanie on Sept 26, 2005 8:04:39 GMT -5
On one level it may seem ludicrous to have technical discussions about a fictional TV drama ... but ... it is entertaining to the purely imaginative parts of our brains that enjoy a little escapism from reality.
There is something innate in people that drives them to tell accounts of incidents or events through stories, drawings, music or in our case modern day TV shows. We may be in cyber world but we are not that different from book club attendees or theater goers debating the meaning behind the writers work.
The characters of this episode of CI made you think. Does Nicole have the upper hand because she got away and had Goren reduced to choking back tears in front of his peers? Can Bobby claim victory because for once he got Nicole to do the right thing?
J.
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Post by mimi1802 on Sept 26, 2005 8:20:12 GMT -5
In the episode the mirror was switched around and Nicole had a taste of her own medicine. She was the patsy.
The doctor specifically chose her because of her past. That part I really enjoyed. My favourite scene was when Goren told Nicole that you attract the people you deserve. I liked the resignation (or was it acceptance) Wallace showed when she realized it and the decisions she made after this discovery.
But the way Nicole's character was presented to us in the last 2 episodes would suggest that NO ONE plays Nicole without suffering consequences...usually death. This sudden longing to do good and save people made me fidget on my seat with impatience. But when the episode was over I didn't feel robbed like in Great Barrier.
These changes in Nicole's personality were in tuned with the plot...no commotions. Was it believable? Not for me. But I liked that they privileged a good story over shock value. One big moment of the show was Wallace's acknowledgment of killing her own daughter. After 4 episodes of always denying that she ever did anything wrong...she kinda-sorta took responsibility.
I believe Goren will continue to pursue her until she faces her crimes but I also believe Nicole came to realize in this episode that she was already in jail. Nothing good will stick to her; even if she makes the right choices. There were great opportunities where Wallace could've thrown back comments made by Goren into his face, but the writers made a nice transition between Great Barrier and this episode. Wallace's grip over Goren is fading away.
I liked the episode because no matter what Nicole has done; she's always longing for something. I disliked the episode because I was force fed redemption by the writing team. I felt they were trying to amend things from past episodes.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Sept 26, 2005 8:36:58 GMT -5
Does Nicole have the upper hand because she got away and had Goren reduced to choking back tears in front of his peers? Can Bobby claim victory because for once he got Nicole to do the right thing? As far as I'm concerned, there is no winner in this show. And as for Goren choking back tears in front of his peers, it serves him right. Nicole didnt do the right thing, she jumped bail. She has no intention of changing or facing her crimes. This show was one hard, rusty nail to swallow. I will never, ever be satisified with the Nicole storyline until Nicole is in prison or dead. Trying t o convince me Nicole is now frail and fractured or is trying to change is like trying to convince me George W. grew a brain. Re; Nicole beating beating A-T and POI murder raps, I'm still stuck on the citizenship issue. She gained citizenship as Elizabeth Hitchens, and vehemently denied she was Nicole Wallace. Now she's running artound as Nicole Wallace. How can she do that? My question is, doesn't the act that she gained citizenship illegally automatically mean the not guilty verdicts are set aside and she should be triued again as a non-citizen? Would double jeapordy apply here? And if it does, she still blantantly gained citizenship illegally, and citizenship should be revoked. Is it ridiculous to have techinal questions about CI? For me, no. I don't mean to harp, I just want an answer. Instead of arguing about it, I'm going to research the answer myself. I'll go ask a real lawyer if i have to!
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Post by LOCIfan on Sept 26, 2005 8:56:13 GMT -5
Re; Nicole beating beating A-T and POI murder raps, I'm still stuck on the citizenship issue. She gained citizenship as Elizabeth Hitchens, and vehemently denied she was Nicole Wallace. Now she's running artound as Nicole Wallace. How can she do that? My question is, doesn't the act that she gained citizenship illegally automatically mean the not guilty verdicts are set aside and she should be triued again as a non-citizen? Would double jeapordy apply here? And if it does, she still blantantly gained citizenship illegally, and citizenship should be revoked. Legally, the citizenship issue is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not her acquittals should be set aside. Non-citizens are tried and convicted of crimes in this country every day (ok, not on the weekends...). As I mentioned above, she was charged and tried under all her aliases. "Setting aside" the acquittals would violate double jeopardy. What her name actually is, and whether or not she's a U.S. citizen do not (legally) have anything to do with whether or not she was found to have murdered the people she was accused of killing. A jury found her not guilty of those crimes. Trying her again for those killings is unconstitutional. As for whether or not her citizenship should be revoked, that's an issue for the INS. And money can/does make a difference. The fact that she's back in the country for this episode suggests she's got a passport with the name Nicole Wallace on it... Since we've never been actually told about what happened, we're free to fill in the blanks. I've always assumed her former husband threw a bunch of money at the problem and it went away. This is, sadly, believable. Even if Nicole's citizenship had been revoked after her acquittal, it would not mean she could be tried again for the murders she'd already been acquitted of. Hope that helps a bit, NicoleMarie!
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Post by lisianthus on Sept 26, 2005 8:57:21 GMT -5
My expectations for this show, after 'Great Barrier', were pretty low. But I loved it.
I liked Logan's intro, and his scene with the guy they brought in.
I loved Nichol getting played by someone scummier then herself, I loved Goren realizing she *didn't* do it all, and I liked her getting away.
For it to be perfect- she has too stay away!
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Post by NicoleMarie on Sept 26, 2005 9:31:08 GMT -5
Thanks, LOCIfan! It does help a bit! Of course, I don't agree with your conclusions but I won't keep kicking that horse, right now. LOL!! They do, however, need to revoke Nicole's citizenship!!! hehehehehe Still doesn't change my disgust at the "Grow" storyline though!!
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Leonore
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 145
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Post by Leonore on Sept 26, 2005 9:36:45 GMT -5
I don't think NW was living as Nicole openly. Goren and Eames at the library checking out the person who had checked out the book for Gwen got suspicious when the woman told them she used the word "mummy" and the Thai key chain. When they took her downtown Goren flung down faked ID on the table before her lawyer walked into the room. She may have been Nicole, but she couldn't have been Wallace, otherwise they would have known who she was right off the bat.
Obviously, she had seen Goren enter the library and headed for the stacks because she had called her lawyer before they cornered her.
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Post by trisha on Sept 26, 2005 9:37:53 GMT -5
Don't worry, NicoleMarie, no one wants to stifle your opinion. Sway it, perhaps, but not squash it. You thoughts are most welcome whether others agree with them or not Now, I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Nicole admitted to using false ID in order to not be extradited on the embezzlement charges. I was also under the impression that Gavin pulled strings to get her a green card as part of her agreement to slinking out of his life. Since there is no body of the real Elizabeth Hitchens, there was not enough evidence to to put Nicole on trial for her murder. The Aussies also don't have enough evidence to charge her in the death of her daughter. Also, I believe that they did get photo's of the real Hitchen's, and they couldn't prove it wasn't the woman they had in custody. I don't know about getting fingerprints from Thailand. Who's to say they even took prints, or that they would still have them all these years later? From what I've read, their criminal justice system is pretty backward and practically midevil compared to ours. Joanie, great points. I've always believed that art is, at its heart, a form of social commentary. And what better indicator, instigator, and investigator into modern society than to combine both art and law? This is what Law & Order has that always keeps me coming back. The CSI's may have the gross technical stuff and "scary" drama, but it's, as Patcat noted, the moral quandaries, and the questions raised by taking our preconceived notions of right and wrong, and good and evil, and muddying them up by presenting a good person who has done something terrible, or a bad person who has done something selfless. It's just these kind of situations that create and define American law, isn't it? It may be just a tv show to some, but I think it's a look into the soul of American society, and I love discussing, arguing, and generally experiencing it with other open minded people. Mimi, I kind of agree with you about being fed redemption. Was it too much too fast, I wonder? After pondering her actions in Great Barrier (saying she's tired and wants a truce) and trying to bond with Ella, and even her attempts to protect Gavin in POI seem to say that she wants a home and family to cling to. Don't we all? She may be profoundly screwed up, but she's still human. Her problems, as Goren pointed out, is that she attracts other screwed up people, or is drawn to them, and the only connection she's managed to make with anyone is with him -- the one who wants put her behind bars and won't settle for less. Because he's her only connection, she won't be able to help herself from seeing him again.
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Post by staszu13 on Sept 26, 2005 9:40:45 GMT -5
OK, here goes......
LOVED Logan's intro, the "nice desk" crack, etc. Alex still hasn't lost her talent for sarcasm.
I think Olivia did a damn good job with a nearly impossible goal: trying to convince us that The Evil One sorta grew a conscience. But how and why? The only remotely plausible answer is that Gwen somehow reminds her of...well, herself. Even so, her own daughter did so too ("She was bright, like her mother.") I don't buy it for a sec that Goren gave her a free pass, he very obviously wanted her to get redemption by serving her time. Nicole just as obviously fet that this was a non-starter.
OK, now as to all the legalistic crap.....re the Anthithesis and POI crimes, already acquitted, a judge would have to rule on the relevancy of the alias thing, but Carver is no dope, I'm sure he covered himself on that. Double jeopardy applies, the Other Evil One in Washington has not YET done away with that bit of business....the illegal citizenship thing is sort of assumed here, perhaps Nicole did get it legally (or with the help of Gavin's money) and even so, still no possibility of retrial here, still double jeopardy. As the man said, "It's Chinatown".....
Not sure if I want her back or not, if they can think up something we'll have to see.....
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