|
Post by Metella on Jun 22, 2005 7:03:04 GMT -5
I'm going to start this & if it gets too emotional then we can vaporize it; but since the summer slow down, I figure this is something everyone has something they feel about governments and those in gov positions.
I'm going to jump right in with taxes; I am horrified at the % of my check that just disappears to the government that then gives assistance to those who are not in need or are a sunk cause. When looking back at other great nations; England - Rome to name just two .... they began to fall apart when they overextended themselves and then instead of pulling back and regrouping their own nation; they taxed the breath out of their citizens and colonists alike.
I'm equally disgruntled at the $ that goes to our own welfare system, which a dear friend of mine fell into herself. The system doesn't help those who just got laid off or injured for a brief time - it helps those who are lazy, who put on weight and then say they are achy and can't work, who have children before they can support them. If you have children and you can't feed them, then give them up for adoption; don't go for the 18 year government subsidy plan. The 18 year plan is just what my friend did & while she was able to stay home and yell at her children; she also got depressed and for the last 4 years has been on anti-depressants.
She never leaves her home to visit, she is not happy and vibrant, she has sunk into a rut. She is barely able to talk about anything anymore. It is sad; and it is caused by the overindulgent system we have.
The tax uses I do think are appropriate: infrastructure, police, fire, EMT's, farmland support, disaster relief: I think we need a form of national healthcare.
|
|
|
Post by BegToDiffer on Jun 22, 2005 8:30:06 GMT -5
Add to that property taxes. Here in Ohio the property taxes carry the schools. If you vote against an increase in your property tax, they make you out to be opposed to education. (A big problem here is that about 80% of those attending schools in Cleveland are on rent, and don't pay any taxes for the schools.) The courts here have already declared this to be unfair and ordered the state to find other funding options for the schools. So far, the PTB have ignored that order. Where would I be if I ignored a court order? I think its called jail.
This thread could become a real HOT topic, but I think people need to vent. Obviously, its okay with me.
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Jun 22, 2005 8:52:14 GMT -5
Well, I LIKE to vent and I also CRAVE to know what others think on an issue - I am not putting my thoughts out to be the only way to look at something; but a way to have discourse on these issues that I think are important for our future.
I don't mean for anyone to feel that they are being judged for their thoughts. As I said before, my views on the death penalty changed over my lifetime - I am just very interested in what this intelligent gang has to say about things.
AND in that vein; as I have no children, I totally forgot about school funding! I think the whole community should contribute to this; but those with children should contribute just a bit more ...... now how in the world could that be done? Property taxes put a large burden on older citizens; many who are on a fixed income and deserve to keep the homestead they worked for all their life.
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Jun 22, 2005 9:39:53 GMT -5
I'm for having a welfare system, but not one that can be abused so easily. It's supposed to be temporary, and should be enforced that way. People should get no more than one year to get their shit together and take care of themselves unless they are severely disabled.
One really hot topic you brought up is kids, specifically people who can't afford them, but keep popping 'em out anyway -- in some cases as a means to get more money from the welfare system. I'd rather not see the system reward people for having children in squalid conditions, but I don't really think that if the system didn't give increases in benefits for additional children that many of these people wouldn't keep having them, and it's the children that would suffer most.
What can we do about that? We can't make it a law that only people who can afford children can have them, because that would open the door for all kinds of legislation and government interference into family and personal matters. In our current political climate, that could be disastrous.
Because of this, it's equally unlikely that we'll ever see my dream of state sponsored family planning centers that offer counseling, birth control, and, dare I say it, abortions to those who want them.
Well, that would be a red state nightmare, wouldn't it?
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Jun 22, 2005 12:08:26 GMT -5
I'd just like to say two things:
If you've never been poor you have no idea how expensive it can be.
And I'd rather my tax money go to the poor--even the undeserving poor--than to fund dictatorships and huge weapons systems.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Jun 22, 2005 12:39:30 GMT -5
I think that people should get "welfare" for calamities & just enough to get them on their feet. To just give $$ to someone because they are poor is a kind of enabling process. What do you say to a guy like my brother, who refused jobs at $7.00/hour because he knew he could do some roofing jobs - so he sucked up money for months until he got a roofing job. That is lazy. That is not good stewardship of public funds. I will never give money to charity. However, I have donated time, I have donated food etc; but never money.
On the dictatroships - oh my do I think we need to unfund so much we back overseas; our noses are wayyy too big; I'm with you there.
I see the point on the weapon's systems. I just can't get over my gut feeling that some little nut case is not going to follow the rules & we have to do a mutual escalation to stay safe. Actually mutual escalation is the way of nature .... the fastest gazelle lives ..... the faster cheetah breeds ..... the showiest bird mates & the males get showier; however it is a huge drain on resources; No really good answer here that I can see, I wish we could do away with most of our weapons ect, I just don't see happening and keeping us as safe as can be.
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on Jun 22, 2005 14:21:30 GMT -5
As long as this thread remains a relatively safe haven to rant and vent, perhaps even debate, without censure or judgment, I'll jump in the fray too.
I won't get started about ill-advised sticking-our-noses-in-other-nations'-business because, well, I've been there, done that, much to my own personal disgust and frustration. What started out for me as a well-intentioned desire to make a difference in the world turned sour rather quickly and dramatically. I'm still recovering from those scars, so it's best for me not to go there again anytime soon.
About welfare, I agree it has a purpose and a place as a TEMPORARY assist to those who need help. But it has turned into an endless cash cow for a lot of undeserving people who have learned to work the system instead of going out to work in a real job. Continuing to pay people to have more and more children just perpetuates the cycle of poverty and need. Better to offer the choice or option of training with the idea of seeking and finding employment to enable a person to support oneself and one's children. And also offer BIRTH CONTROL as a condition for eligibility for welfare assistance, no more endless free handouts with no end in sight.
Property taxes in general penalize home owners who are childless or who have grown children no longer in the public schools system. I agree funding schools should be a community responsibility. But something needs to be done to lessen the burden on those who are not using the public school system and place more of the responsibility for school funding on those who are using the service, whether they own their own homes or rent.
Question: How come our so-called public "servants" have larger incomes, and more benefits and perks than us, their employers? What happened to the idea of public service as a public trust? What happened is, political office has become an excuse for the rich and powerful to continue to feed at the public trough ad infinitum unless term limits come into play. Our nation's founders envisioned political office as something one does for a time to SERVE one's country or locality, then one returns to private life and their former occupation. This notion has been perverted, distorted, and discarded outright as government has become mired in bureaucracy and BS.
And I am a firm believer in recall elections on every level. Just because someone got elected via lies and deceptions, or reneges on campaign promises, shouldn't mean that person gets a free ride to finish out a term of office. I say, the citizenry should have some recourse to hold public officials up to greater scrutiny and accountability, and if they fail, they should be subject to recall and possible ouster.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Jun 22, 2005 14:31:58 GMT -5
There are, of course, freeloaders on the system. But one reason many people stay on welfare is that they cannot afford the daycare, bus fares, etc. on a $7 an hour job.
An example---the city of Indianapolis is unwilling to provide the funding that would give it a reliable bus system that would be affordable and allow people to get to the suburbs, where most jobs are available. The result is that people don't try to get jobs, or they get jobs and then lose them because they have no way to get to their jobs on time.
Or some people stay on assistance because if they take a job they lose any chance at assisted insurance.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Jun 22, 2005 18:02:41 GMT -5
And what about companies, that hire only part time employees, so they don’t have to offer health insurance?
On Plan Parenthood and the abortion issue. I am pro-life. I do respect everyone’s opinion that believes in ProChoice…..I know Abortion is not going to go away. I just feel that when it comes to Plan Parenthood, or any doctor office, maybe they could offer up, encourage adoption as an option. I have met enough woman through the years that have had abortions. They were never told, they might experience some regrets after the procedure. Some woman as they get older, think, “well if I had had that child, he/she would be 8 years old, I would have named him Matthew after his father, or Sara after my grandmother“ I really feel that piece of information, should be brought to the table before the procedure starts. Give the patient some case histories of what to expect after the procedure.
When it comes to birth control. Why has there not been a pill designed for the man to take? Think about it, A woman is fertile for about 2 days if that, out of the month. Where most men are walking around with loaded guns, every day of the month. Whether they use them or not! I know they are carrying “the seed” and we have to be careful that we don’t screw up the genetics/dna of their special gift. I just think in the year 2005, there should be some kind of pill, that the guys can take with their vitamins in the morning. It could help eliminate abortions, and also keep the “dead beat dad warrants” away from some doors. Might also take a slice out of the Welfare issue
As for Welfare, I think it should be there to help people in need. While on it, does the recipient go to school and learn a new trade? Do they do some clean up work for the areas they live in? Let them learn and earn their keep.
Oh oh oh oh…… our Social Security Taxes…… Why can you make $300,000.00 a year and only have to pay Social Security Tax on $90,000.00. As our Social Security System goes bankrupt. What about all the federal tax breaks the obscenely wealthy get and end up paying tax on a small percentage of their income. Maybe if they paid the same percentage as lower and middle class America, there might be more money to help those who cant’ make ends meet on $7.00 an hour job. Something to supplement their salary, and not totally take care of them. That would encourage people to work and earn part of their income
|
|
|
Post by NicoleMarie on Jun 22, 2005 19:17:38 GMT -5
There are a hundred million things I could rant about but I will rant abouta few things that makes me the most livid!
I am married with no kids. Thus, my husband and I pay more in taxes. We don't get nothing back- we pay in. My brother gets hardly pocket change back because he has no kids either and is single. Yet my sister, with her two moppets (I like that word!) gets LOTS of money back. At the risk of sounding like a heartless B***h, I am sick of subsidizing other peoples' kids!
Second thing that makes me mad: I see bumper stickers all over the place here (Michigan) that say "Work harder! Millions on welfare depend on you!" That is so ignorant! Yes, I know people that abused the system but most don't. A few years ago, they were trying to pass laws that required welfare recipients to be drug tested. Do they really think only drug addicts are the only ones on welfare?
RE: Planned Parenthood/ abortion, I am pro-choice. What irks me is people have kids and cannot afford to even feed them or take care of them. "I had a baby, I can't get a job", "I had a baby, I can't finish high school/college." Well, you should have thought of that before you ever had the kid or never had sex in the first place! I have *Zero* sympathy for them!
Has anyone ever seen the SVU episode "Shaken"? This episode applies to my comments.
*GROWLS*
I must sound like I'm on the war-path, so I think I'll shut up now. LOL!!
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Jun 22, 2005 20:17:22 GMT -5
Cassie, I know a few women that have had abortions and they all had a three day waiting periods from their first appointment and mandatory counseling where adoption and keeping the baby were addressed a possible options. They also had post-procedure counseling, which was optional. For most people who make an appointment for an abortion, the pro's and con's have been considered at length. For one, the procedure isn't done until 10 weeks, and for someone facing an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy, that's a long freak'n time to think. And I agree with everything else you wrote. Our tax system is a joke. I really think that income tax is impractical, unfair, and utterly inefficient. A flat consumption tax is the way of the future, and is something you'd think true republicans would like. But they're not really republicans anymore. I whole heartedly agree with Howard Dean that they're the Christian party, and that since they've come into power they've created the most un-republican policies anyone has ever seen. Hell, they're challenging states rights on almost a daily basis now, and without even hiding the fact that their doing it in the name of Christian morality. Could they be more backward and arrogant? Oh, and you'll love this www.bupa.co.uk/health_information/html/health_news/131003malepill.htmlThere was a better and more recent one on my network homepage this morning, but it's been rotated out already. I'll keep my eye open for it
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Jun 23, 2005 7:47:55 GMT -5
Thank you guys very much, I totally enjoy this type of discussion and while I see people getting worked up - it is only as they express their passion, not at others & that was what I was going for!
Trisha - I never thought of deterioration of the Republican party that way - I think it is the most accurate description I've heard. I always thought that a small you are a citizen tax & then consumption tax was totally the way to go. We could cut our spending by over 60% and still have a strong ecomony - we would just have to butt out of most of the rest of the world.
I am & will stay an Independent, but am totally dismayed at the crony-ism and breezy spending of the Democratic party. We need a real shake up - it was done before - we didn't always have these two dusty parties to choose from.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Jun 23, 2005 9:06:46 GMT -5
Does everyone realizes what a wonder this conversation is---that we're having a political discussion that doesn't involve shouting, condemnation, or stupidity? That there's civil disagreement going on here?
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Jun 23, 2005 9:16:01 GMT -5
Yah, ain't it cool? I was hesitant - but I really want to know what others think about this & frankly, we need to have people passionate about BOTH sides of issues to come to a truly reasonable long term solutions for most problems. That is why I respect that Patcat is standing firm for her position on assisting the poor, although it I think it is a never-ending, enabling sink hole - my way would leave some worthy people in the cold. Of course, I would still leave them in the cold ..... Anyone want to tackle national parks all issues AND to allow or restrict or not allow snowmobiles?
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Jun 23, 2005 12:14:14 GMT -5
Snowmobiles in national parks: Restrict them and make them pay high fees. The first to help protect the wildlife (and the snowmobilers); the second because they can afford it (g) and it's a good source of revenue.
Patcat
|
|