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Post by Metella on Jul 19, 2006 9:58:46 GMT -5
? Well, like Raeangel - I think what this man did was wrong according to my standards. He didn't show any love or empathy or real caring about her & her life. I agree that he needs to face the music.
However, I DON'T think he belongs in jail - he is not a threat to society - unless he has other children. We don't need to waste resources on him. He did not do what I would call a monsterous thing - just a stupid, selfish and anti-(current)social thing.
It was normal in the past for humans to set out babies they didn't want. Normal even now in some places to sell children if the need is there. I think it wrong - but let him fester as society is moving forward without his kind & we need to concentrate on violent offenders who may hurt our own families if not addressed.
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Post by Patcat on Jul 19, 2006 11:14:41 GMT -5
Nope, he belongs in jail, if only because the buying and selling of human beings is slavery, and it's illegal in this country (or at least it's supposed to be).
And, I'm sorry, but I can't understand how anyone can minimize the crime this man attempted to commit.
Patcat
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Post by Metella on Jul 19, 2006 12:49:48 GMT -5
no - not minimizing; just categorizing. Surely if you read my post you saw the words: wrong, stupid, selfish, anti-social "needs to face the music" I was not minimizing according to my standards.
I also don't think many drug users should be placed in prison. My outlook on what prisons are, what they are meant to do, what they actually accomplish and frankly - the bottom line - money and physical resources.
I definately don't think he should be in jail/prison. I can see where you would tag this as slavery - it is slavery with that focus you put on it - I still wouldn't put him in jail knowing what I know about this (very little) and knowing what I know about our prison systems.
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Post by Patcat on Jul 19, 2006 15:06:12 GMT -5
I agree with you, Metalla, regarding most drug offenders--they need treatment, not prison. But for this "person"--what sort of punishment would you suggest other than prison? And I mean that question with all respect and interest.
Patcat
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Post by sarahlee on Jul 19, 2006 15:48:21 GMT -5
Good question, patcat, what do you do about a crime (it is a crime, not just a culture-clash) like this? This man does not have a disease (addiction) and he doesn't believe he did anything wrong. Counseling just doesn't sound like enough.
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Post by spaniard on Jul 19, 2006 16:27:14 GMT -5
There are adoption agencies where you can give your kid if you can´t take care of the baby so the excuses like "to find a better home" or "they looked good people and loved the baby" don´t work anymore. When you exchange your baby for money you are selling him and that is a mistreat, you don´t beat the baby up but you mistreat him/her treating the baby as a thing. And when you don´t care about your kid to the point of trading him for money, then you are guilty. You need psychological help AND prison. Culture is not an excuse, there are cultures where the ablation of the clitoris on babygirls is legal, what happens if someone does that here? oh, we can´t blame them for mutilating their girl forever, it´s their culture...my ass. Or you follow the law or you break it and pay for it. The fact that the baby won´t remember is a blessing but the guy is still guilty, we are not talking about someone that stole your car and you have it back intact, we are talking about a human being with rights and I think that not be sold like a horse is a damn good one. I´m sorry, I would be less strict if he had good reasons but ...money for home improvement?!? What´s next? "Oh, we wanted a bigger tv so we sold our grandma for animal testing". I know, I know, I went too far with this one
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Post by trisha on Jul 19, 2006 18:27:46 GMT -5
I also don't think that non-violent people really belong in prison. In many cases, paying a debt to society would be better done through actual MONEY. Instead of 5 -10 in jail, how about 5- 10 years of having his wages garnished?
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Post by raeangel319 on Jul 19, 2006 18:30:36 GMT -5
raeangel, I went back and re-read your post, got a grip on myself, and now maybe I can communicate more clearly. The man (he can never be called "father") did not physically abuse his child, but he did equate her with property. He saw no problem with selling a human being for money. I'm not even sure he saw her as a human being, I got the impression from the origional post that he saw her as a commodity, a thing to use for his profit. I call that abuse. You are right, he's an idiot. I say idiots can also be evil. He did a hateful thing in debasing this child. i agree...the whole "human as property" thing...that is what i see as completely WRONG. i just keep thinking..at least the kid wasn't in physical pain from abuse, malnourishment, whatever. (and at least SHE'LL never know the emotional pain of being not being loved by her "father" and being made to feel like property..i hope no one ever tells her!) and he should be prosecuted for it. However, i also agree with matella in a way that jail is almost a waste of resources on this ..."guy" ....on the other hand..something like a huge fine and community service don't really seem like enough of a punishment, ya know? not sure exactly where i stand on that point. it's not like he's gonna come out of jail with a different attitude on the subject.
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Post by sarahlee on Jul 19, 2006 19:02:21 GMT -5
Yowza! We always get good comments in our discussions. I like the suggestion about garnishing wages and community service, but I agree that a fine just doesn't seem enough for SELLING YOUR CHILD. And even if prison doesn't change the person, isn't punishment still necessary? Justice for the child? This is one of those issues we may never resolve, but I remain hopeful.
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Post by trisha on Jul 19, 2006 19:17:22 GMT -5
Well, isn't the child getting a better life by having the chance to be raised by someone who would actually love her? I think that's the best kind of justice she can have; not having an injustice done to her (being raised without love.)
He maybe a stupid, heartless, horror of a human being, but in selling his parental rights, he *may* have been doing what was in the best interests of both of them.
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Post by sarahlee on Jul 19, 2006 19:24:08 GMT -5
Right. More for me to think on. Anybody else?
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Post by spaniard on Jul 19, 2006 19:56:54 GMT -5
when you don´t want prison for certain crimes, then those crimes don´t impress you anymore. When society isn't impressed it is a step away from accepting and...do you want to live in a place where anybody could sell a baby for whatever reason and it would be acceptable?
Of course this kid would be better in another home with better parents but this guy didn't care a damn about the baby's future, just wanted money. And how do you know that those parents were good? where are the psychological reports? the social services review? if they are rich enough to buy a baby then it´s sure that they are good?
Money instead of prison looks a very good idea with a crime like stealing cycles, not selling human beings.
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Post by trisha on Jul 19, 2006 20:27:43 GMT -5
There are a lot of crimes with punishments that don't involve prison and they still impress people because they almost all include fines.
I'm sorry it offends your moral sensibilities that I can look at in such a logical way, but when the perpatrator cannot see or comprehend the emotional side, what else can we do? A lot of people just don't care about other people, but they damn sure care about what they get to do with their hard earned wages. This is the reason my state has adopted the policy of fining people $7,500 along with whatever charges apply for injuring or killing a highway worker.
It may make you sick to think that a person would be careful not hurt another to avoid paying a fine, but WORKS! At this point in American society, I think monetary fines should be added to pretty much all crimes. Even if a person is in lock up, they should have a job in there and have those wages seized or garnished until their fine is paid. If you don't pay your fines on the outside, then you go into lock up where you'll be put to work, making license plates or whatever, and pay them there.
It may be a little too Hammurabi for some, but if it works, it works.
Also, I never said or implied that the adoptive parents were better because they could pay or anything else you wrote. I simply think that anyone who could put a price on their child shouldn't have one. I'm not saying people should be allowed to sell their children like puppies. The state should certainly be involved to be sure that the adopting family will provide a good home. I just think that what he did, while heartless and wrong, could *possibly* have been for the benefit of both father and child, if for no other reason than that he didn't love her, and children need and deserve to be raised in a home where they are loved.
As I recall, the article didn't say he was abusive in anyway. He just didn't love her and didn't want her. And here's the scary part for you, had he gone through the couples lawyer, he would have gotten away with it.
JUST LIKE ANGELINA JOLE DID IN AFRICA -- oh, except she actually stole that little girl from her maternal grandmother who tried to contest the adoption. Where's everyones moral outrage on that one?
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Post by spaniard on Jul 19, 2006 20:48:40 GMT -5
I know people would do anything to avoid a fine, that´s why some people drive carefully, they don´t do it for their own safety.
We had a thread about adoption and I think that there are good ways to do it and then you are sure there will be a happy ending for everybody.
And about your last point, I´ve met people that don´t adopt kids, they collect them because there is something lacking in their lives and try to fill their empty space with the wrong 'filling'.
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Post by trisha on Jul 19, 2006 21:19:20 GMT -5
Angelina = Chesley Watkins!!
And extra poo-poo on her for stealing a baby and two husbands and still having the nerve to call herself a humanitarian. No shame whatsoever. Bluck.
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