lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on May 10, 2006 10:02:14 GMT -5
Sorry to offend NicoleMarie, :-), but I honestly think the character has taken a dive in the last two seasons. He just got boring, probably because the actor is bored, doing it only for the money maybe? I certainly don't know. I have no loyalty to either Goren or Logan, I just used to really love THE SHOW.
I loved that great idiosyncratic Goren, not to be confused with the actor, in whom I have no interest. I was never one of those Gorenistas and left a different fan sight b/c all you are allowed to do there is gush over how cute he is :roll eyes:. However, there has been no sign of that character lately, and I was about to give up on the show. I already stopped watching it live in favor of The Sopranos, and catch it on Tivo later when I have a chance. That is a big change! I used to have my fanny parked in the chair at 8:58pm every Sunday! Something happened; the actors personal life went to shit, he has health problems, he's bored, the writers are disinterested, mercury is not aligned with pluto, whatever. Most of season 4 and 5 have been either downright lousy or mediocre. We can't blame the Desperate Housewives for that. I'm not a D'Onofrio fan, (nor a D'Onofrio hater) I watched the show because the show was great entertainment. I never thought of Goren as eye candy, just interesting. Since I am not head over heels in love with either Bobby Goren or the actor, and I'm probably pretty representative of the general age bracket the show (and advertising) was aimed at, I think the fact that i've been so dissapointed in it is probably a good indication of how a cross section of non freak fans feel, lol.
On the site I used to belong to for instance, if anyone suggested that D'Onofrio does not walk on water, or that the character Goren was somehow portrayed imperfectly, the members would FREAK OUT and gang up on you. Those fans will defend it with their dying breath, there can be no OBJECTIVE analysis of the show. Here it seems almost all objective, which is what drew me here. I just want to talk about what is good about he show, and what could be improved. Not whether Vincent D'Onofrio wears boxers or briefs.
And I agree with Mimi, that it seems Logan and Barek have gotten better scripts of late. That voo doo episode and To the Bone are much better than anything Goren and Eames have done this season, excpet maybe Cruise to Nowhere which wwas really good. However, It thought it was good because of the guest star, not the regulars. Wee small hours was great, but I hate to hear Donofrio was pissy about sharing screen time with Logan (that other thread) That kind of ruins it for me.
I really like the original Llaw and Order, and I really like CI. I want to see them both morph and do well. There have been tons of cast changes that seemed like certain doom on the original. I thought Ben Stone leaving would kill the show, and it only got better. I think it appeared that Goren's leaving would kill the show, but I think now we have seen it too can survive and thrive after a terrific character (can I just say LENNY!) moves on.
And I still say D'Onofrio looks more like my overweight, graying father than some guy on People magazines most beautiful list, lol. I just don't know what those girls see in him. I used to see great acting, not so much lately, and that is my beef.
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Post by mikeyrocks on May 10, 2006 11:04:17 GMT -5
And Humble too - ;D mimi1802!!!
Perhaps I should have phrased it as - Your a very reasonable voice. You seem to stay very objective - and look at the whole picture - seeing it for both its positive and negative attributes. Something not alot of people do - myself included at times.
As I said I really enjoy reading your posts - I find them very enlightening - Look forward to reading more.
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Post by Techguy on May 10, 2006 14:17:32 GMT -5
TechGuy, I hear what your saying that if the “foster kid cop” suicided out….then all is lost in helping Antonio. Which your questioning is …then why bother to go and help the kid in the first place. I guess, my first gut reaction to seeing that scene played out was “suicide by cop” . I actually sat up on the sofa and yelled that out, before they even ID him as a cop. When Logan and Barek drew their guns and said they were the police. Maybe the “foster kid cop” felt all was lost for him and Antonio, maybe it was just a weak moment for him. I just think he knew a whole lot more of what life was like with Mama Chelsey and he knew the gig was up. Time may tell. That's it, I was hoping I conveyed the reason behind my puzzlement. Whether due to a weak moment or disorientation, that helps explain why the foster son cop could have done what he did.
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Post by madger on May 10, 2006 14:32:46 GMT -5
Aw.. lovesong, you mean to tell me that you don't go weak at the knees when you watch VDO (snark). I was looking at boards before I found this one and had to laugh, one poster said she thought Vincent is very cute, even though he's sooo old. All of you are serious critics of the show, we must all be sooo old, at least 16. madger
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Post by NicoleMarie on May 10, 2006 21:31:04 GMT -5
Hey Nicolemarie,good to see you posting.I like your style.You always cut through the icing,and your disagreements with me have always been enlightening for me,ie about Nicole!!! I agree with you.I dont want them to make Logan more like Goren in order for me to watch his episodes.He is not a head man.Whoopi is enough to make me watch!!!!I like Logan in the scheme of things.Its not a war,its just an overall structure inthe art of drama. Hey Janet! I like to try to put myself in your shoes and see how you view things. You see things are more abstract and look for a deeper meaning while I tend to see face value. I like your challenges! I agree with you again, I don't think CI could make Logan into a Goren because Logan as who he is is what appeals to fans. I think it would hurt CI and Logan if they did that. Even though I myself don't like Logan, I wouldn't want his fans to go through the helpless agony of seeing a profound change in him like some of us have with Goren.
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Post by NicoleMarie on May 10, 2006 22:08:42 GMT -5
lovesong,
You didn't offend me at all. Your post did cause me me rethink my stance on my irritation with Goren these last few seasons. I think it is more the writing rather than the character or Vincent himself. I think the writers are veering off in directions and are experimenting as well. Goren has lost many of the mannerisms that made him Goren and in turn, is somewhat dull to me as well. However, I don't blame the character or the actor. Rather, it's just how the character is evolving due to the storyline. Am I annoyed? You bet. But, I am patient enough and curious enough to see what happens. I feel I was rewarded for my patience and curiosity in season 5, even if I wasn't fully satisfied, because some of Goren quirks returned. I'm fascinated by the character and want to slap him at the same time! And it's not even his fault! There's really not a "fault" anywhere. I have other beefs but I'll just leave that alone because it is irrelevant to Goren and how D'Onofrio portrays Goren.
I still place the ratings dip directly on DH. However, I think the die-hards are still there. The ratings have jumped a bit, even before the fear of the show being cancelled.
I do believe Vincent himself is a bit bored but, he has spent years as a movie actor and has himself said it's "weird playing the same guy all the time", and I think it's starting to show. I also think it's bound to because he has to adjust.
I am quite familiar with the sites that go into a frenzy if you critizise Vincent or CI, as I have been a victim of it myself. I rarely if ever post on Vincent fans. I think Vincent is attractive, not Goren but, being "cute" alone will not make me happy.
Negative gossip against Vincent is not a deciding factor in how much I like or dislike Vincent or Goren. I have read just as much stupid stuff against Chris Noth, so I think that kind of crap comes with the territory. It cannot be proven or unproven to us so, I think it's best to dismiss it as irrelevant and concentrate on the actors' work, rather than how many pages of crap the tabloids write about them.
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on May 11, 2006 7:20:46 GMT -5
Hey Nicole, I have to run to the dentist but I appreciate your post and wanted to let you know I saw it and am not ignoring you. ITA with what you said. Your post and the one above are making me rethink my frustration with the show. I"m still frustrated, but I may be able to articulate why better after laying in the DDS chair awhile and pondering.
I've read much worse things about Noth than DOnofrio. Well worse in my opinion anyway. It doesn't affect how I feel about the show for the most part (I admit, hearing that there was friction on Wee Smal Hours kind of spoils one of my fav episodes). I still think To the Bone was probably the highlight of the season, and that it has proven Logan can carry the show if he has to. That doesn't mean I WANT him to have to.
More later.
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Post by NicoleMarie on May 11, 2006 11:04:45 GMT -5
NicoleMarie, For someone who only catches glimpses of Logan's episodes, you surely have an in-depth opinion about his new personnality, psychology and most and foremost place, or lack thereof, in MCS. You are entitled to your opinion, but maybe a full viewing might shed a new light on the character. Mimi, A full viewing is not needed to see that Logan and Goren operate on drastically different levels. Logan operates on a lower level than Goren. Logan is more "procedural" and Goren the more, oh, how do I say it?...psychological one, and that makes CI for me. That IMO, is why Logan is out of place on CI. My opinion may be in the minority but I hold it regardless. I don't think I'm wrong to say Logan works on a lower level than Goren. I think Barek is more qualified to be in MCS, even is she is dull. It's one of the reasons I like her. Aww Gee Nicolemarie and I thought that we'd converted you LOL!! Are you sure about HATE - how about hey he sort of annoys you ;D Ok, you win! How about I HATE Nicole and Logan annoys the hell out of me?
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Post by NicoleMarie on May 11, 2006 11:06:31 GMT -5
Oops.
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Post by Metella on May 11, 2006 11:40:38 GMT -5
lower level? ha! now that is harsh. different level - I'll buy - but ONLY because they have different personalities - I think Eames is also on a different level and her's is also more steeped in procedural moves.
Goren would have been better to follow procedure a few times & a few times following procedure would have confused the issue - so like most "teams" or departments - it PAYS to have people operating on DIFFERENT levels.
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Post by mimi1802 on May 11, 2006 12:04:47 GMT -5
Metella, you were quicker than I was.
NicoleMarie, That's an insulting comment to make! It's a good think we're only talking about fictional characters here.
As far as I know Logan would hold in the real world, the adequate training, experience and qualifications to be hired by a MCS. That for me is a given. I was more referring to Logan "the human being".
ETA: although I do agree that Logan is not the psychological part of CI, yet Barek does balance things out, keeping the CI structure in place, only in reverse.
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Post by goreamesfan on May 11, 2006 12:36:17 GMT -5
I agree with you, janethyland. I'm a pretty recent convert to LOCI and have watched the episodes completely out of order, so maybe I'm not a good judge, but I have really enjoyed most of the season 4 episodes I've seen. I think they're of consistently high quality. Perhaps Goren's character has evolved over the seasons, but I think that happens with almost all long-running series. And though I enjoy his quirks, perhaps there were more than were needed in the early seasons. And I have definitely seen quirkiness in season 5 (did anyone else think it was comical in Cruise to Nowhere to see such a big guy sitting in the half lotus position to eat his eggplant parmagiana? And what kind of meal is that to bring into a jail cell to an emotionally stunted gambing addict??? I loved it). I actually think it takes greater writing and acting discipline not to rely too heavily on the quirks, especially if doing so takes emphasis away from the sophistication and centrality of the plots.
I'm also glad to see some postings that veer away from rumors of actors' behavior on and off set. Taking this kind of information out of context just seems pointless to me and really has nothing to do with the show. I think we can all safely assume that ALL of these actors have egos.
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Post by filmnoir5 on May 11, 2006 12:56:40 GMT -5
Hey Nicole, I have to run to the dentist but I appreciate your post and wanted to let you know I saw it and am not ignoring you. ITA with what you said. Your post and the one above are making me rethink my frustration with the show. I"m still frustrated, but I may be able to articulate why better after laying in the DDS chair awhile and pondering. I've read much worse things about Noth than DOnofrio. Well worse in my opinion anyway. It doesn't affect how I feel about the show for the most part (I admit, hearing that there was friction on Wee Smal Hours kind of spoils one of my fav episodes). I still think To the Bone was probably the highlight of the season, and that it has proven Logan can carry the show if he has to. That doesn't mean I WANT him to have to. More later. I don't think it should affect your enjoyment of a good episode at all. For all we know it may not be true. The results are what is important and the result is that Wee Hours was well received by viewers and all actors appeared in the episode and did a good job. It may not be true because there is no way a source who does not even work for CI knows how an actor feels or actually heard what the actor said or even the context of how it was said if it was even actually said. But it really did not affect the results of a good product. It would have been much more relevant, interesting, and useful information if the actor did not appear in the episode but that was not the case. However, even in the case of an S. Epatha Merkerson not appearing on the May 7 episode, I have yet to read about that "scenario" in any publication other than the FOX News article. So I have to wonder about that. Maybe she had a scheduling conflict. It did not affect the overall episode but I do hope she appears in another episode because she is a very good actress and I liked her in "Badge"
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Post by Metella on May 11, 2006 13:05:30 GMT -5
Well, I don't know ..... I won't pay to see Mi 3 as I think Tom C has taken a leap, not only off the deep end, but one that could lead to harm to others. I wouldn't patronize anything that I am strongly opposed to; but I wouldn't base that on articles & such. ie: with Tom, it came out of his own mouth.
If someone does drown kittens - frankly, I want them to be called to task for their bad behavior & I refuse to reward them. So it is a sliding scale for me.
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on May 11, 2006 13:24:04 GMT -5
I do not see the entropy some of you describe. I came in at Season 4 and took it at its own value.I then saw the earlier seasons retrospectively and valued each on its own terms,though I did find season 1 a bit theatrical and false at times. I have found season 5 to be very creative,and I didnt find the dramatisation of the introspective Goren to be boring. I also take each episode on its own terms. It has been a delight to watch the creative development of this piece of work in all its moods and perspectives. And i look forward to further development. Posts like this point out to me my flaws as a viewer. I am such a passive viewer, I can't ever see the "meta" in the show, so this short of thing escapes me too often. I have someone close to me who is an artist, and *understands* art in a way that totally confounds me. I either like it or I don't. I am much the same way about TV. I just literally laughed out loud in season 1. I loved the climbing on the church pew using someone's head, dancing around the interview room with schizophrenics, etc. I know no detective would ever act that way, and that a lot of people found it annoying. I just love it. It made it fun to watch, in additon to the show being well written and suprising a lot of the time. Since that is what I first loved about it, I am really missing it now that they have drifted away from it. To The Bone was really the first episoide that made me think I could love the show again. I never had that adjustment with cast changes on the other L&O (I have never been into the 2nd sex crimes one, maybe it has gone through the same thing). I am not one for a ot of backstory stuff. The less I hear about Goren's mother the better, but I did really like how they tied up Logan's backstory into this one. It just all fits so well together, Logan's evolution as a person, everything we know he's been through career wise as well. Well scripted, well acted and terrific camera work. Just really enjoyed everything about it. I don't think Logan is less a detective than Goren, I think he is more stereotypical. The hot blooded New York/Irish cop thing. But he is beginning to transcend that stereotype, and that is interesting. Goren has always reminded me more of Columbo (whom I loved, and yes, I'm old enough to have watched that when it was on) than Sherlock Holmes. Logan is "everycop." I think, actually, Logan would probably have more success with real life criminals than Goren. Now I don't know anything about the NYPD, but is MCS some sort of honorific job? There are 30-40 people milling about in any given episoide, they can't all be brilliant detectives like Goren seeemed initially. Some of them have to be average, and some below average (think Bishop). I always thought MCS was referring to the kinds of cases handled, not so much who was handling them. I never inferred that these detectives were superior to other NYPD detectives. So I can't see saying that any type doesn't "belong" in MCS. I can see saying that *Logan* doesn't "belong" on the show, CI, though, b/c that is exactly what I thought when I heard he was coming over. I was annoyed beyond belief. I thought, no way can MIKE LOGAN fit in on this show! But my mind has been changed as I've said. Good to be dead wrong sometimes!
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