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Post by Sirenna on Nov 15, 2006 7:44:43 GMT -5
Terrific post, Techguy!
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 15, 2006 7:47:45 GMT -5
Goren didn't quit, just said he would'nt care if he got fired. I think Peachybc was astute to point out that Goren, the one always in control, wants someone else to make the decision to leave the force for him.
It was soapy - a bit too much so for my liking but I'm struck by how many people posting so far see their own loved one in the distressed characters, especially Goren's mother. It shows that the writing rings true in its portrayal of human nature.
I taped this one and will review before adding my thoughts. I've loved reading all the posts but I wouldn't say I see things the same way as many of you at all ;D
Take Alex for instance. I thought she was great! She picked up the slack when Bobby just dropped it (offering to see things out in the woods for both of them while he went to the Carmel Ridge just twenty minutes away.) After his temper tantrum at his desk- yes that's what that was - she still went after him to see what was wrong. That scene reminded me of the pivotal scene in POI when Goren realizes he's inadvertently caused Conroys death by allowing his twisted ties to his family to warp his judgement. It was a character-changing moment in the episode when Eames' support turned his attitude and thinking right around enabling to come closer than ever before to catching Nicole.
What did he do this time? He pushed her away, allowing himself to be disrepectful both personally and professionally and for no other reason than he felt like it at the moment. Then later instead of acknowledging it, he acted like it never happened discussing the case with her. So bogus that of course she was ticked off.
I know I know, mother dying, brother neglectful, commissioner's daughter in trouble, Captain getting on his case, cell phone keeps ringing. Life's sucks at the moment but to act violently towards his desk is dumb (all the notes strewn everywhere, how does that help him eget home any sooner?), professionally it makes him look like a nutcase (so no one will be sitting next to him at the next policeman's ball) and worrisome (after all Alex must wonder if he's going to allow himself to lose it like that again at a key moment and get them both killed in the line of duty?)
If I was his partner I'd give him one more chance to confront this and then I'd ask for a new partner, as a life-preserver, until or unless he took a Leave of Absence. It's like people coming to work with a cold. Go home and get well instead of hacking it out, infecting and grossing everyone else out. In other words deal with it in a sane and healthy way - don't dump your germs on the rest of us.
He should know his limits and not try to ignore them. That's what his mother does and look where that got them both.
So far that's all. I have to get to work.
This episode is definately the War with Oneself.
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lodi
Rookie
Posts: 20
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Post by lodi on Nov 15, 2006 8:52:13 GMT -5
sarahlee - yeah, I hear you. Occasionally the guilt can still get you - especially when the woman is dying. And his brother definitely does not seem helpful...
I also think gorensdoppelganger made a good point - you need an advocate in the hospital even when you are not mentally ill. He may have felt he needed to be there, not trusting the caregivers completely. No doubt, his boss was out of line calling him in at a time like that. If your organization is that dependent on one guy, you have trouble. Why couldn't the boss have worked the case with Eames?
Also, I loved Techguy's last insights - no wonder he is a five-star general.
Lodi
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 15, 2006 9:12:20 GMT -5
Bah, sleep, who needs sleep?!
Here the morning after I keep thinking about the writing of this episode which was pretty tight, and the fact that so many of the situations, lines, etc. resonated no only with the plot, but had other implications to other facets of the story. Nice job there.
And I keep wondering if Ross will take any of the grieving father's words about not being approachable enough to heart as he settles in to leading the MCS. There was an interesting undercurrent about leadership that might could be applied to how Ross does things.
Keep those thoughts/reactions coming... I have feeling we have a lot to talk about until we get to the next episode. Can't wait to see where we go from here.
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Post by Metella on Nov 15, 2006 9:12:52 GMT -5
I thought the acting by the guest stars was EXCELLENT in this one.
I think that for the mother to touch the daughter was ok - they knew she had the bullet hole etc before the mother got there. I know when my dad died - I had an overwhelming need to touch his body.
I felt insulted by the writing in this one. I felt spoonfed - all that used to be created subtely is now flat out in the open - this leaves no room for each viewer to color it in their own imagination; no room for thought. They are also playing to the audience now - doing pumpkins & halloween; thanksgiving - that was never done before.
The "answers" to all "our" questions were given to us wrapped up nicely in this one episode. bluck
I thought VDO's acting was not too impressive in this one - his mussed distraction was ok at first - but I didn't see the depth of it change - it was good for where it was - but stayed flatline at that level. None of the changing eye expressions he is so good at during closeups.
Someone mentioned self preservation instincts, I agree with that; but also think they should be kicking in with Goren; all this obvious manipulation by the mother – well it rings hollow after a while. After a while, a professional like Goren would instruct the care facility to contact him only in emergencies and then would visit on a regulated timeline and not let himself be manipulated to the point that it interferes with his work. There is nothing he can do to ease this & even when he IS there, she doesn’t let up and calm down – so his efforts don’t make a difference.
We have a right to time off to tend to our love ones … yes! And this also was not right, either Goren wanted to be near his mother while she dealt with the cancer (knowing her mental state would not be affected) or he felt he would be there later when her health really down turned – but not the back and forth – there & gone, multiple phone calls with no chance of a logical conversation …… that did not ring true for me.
Guilt …. We sure it may flow over you … but if his mother were in her right mind – do you think she would want her actions hurting her son? So if not, why can’t he honor that now – and either be there or be at work and available for emergencies? I’m still not buying the torn between two worlds thing for Bobby’s character.
I am surpised that the story - the plot - of the mass murder is not really referenced here. That leads to the critique that this was a SOAP driven episode. The way it would come about, the people involved in the murder and how & why they would think to cover it up - what it would do to the other guys psyche - I know only the one claimed to have killed Ashley - but the other guys were in on the mass murder and coverup and THAT would have been the story for me. This type of behavior was seen in VietNam - it has been studied, military leaders know to be on the lookout - media knows to be on the lookout ..... this seemed just a nasty little aside to me in this episode - when this should have been the weak stone that Goren picked at to get the wall to crumble. The guy's guilt; not the sorrow for two mates who were ambushed & killed.
I did like the acting in this - the lighting was good and solid. I liked (as always) the outside scenes. The opening of the trunk of the car was wrentching. The plot was a good idea & poorly executed. Overall I came away with the feeling the writers now consider the audience slack jawed and drooling. Well, maybe the audience they want for ratings is that way, but I am offended & am now only looking forward to Logan episodes.
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Post by sarahlee on Nov 15, 2006 9:28:55 GMT -5
From Grand Poobah to General techguy! Do we bow or salute? LOL
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 15, 2006 9:42:28 GMT -5
Yep, that was a really insightful post, General Tech!
Metella: You hit the nail on the head with many of your points.
Goren was messed up in this one. My only questions are why now? why this much? After all he has known his mother ill most of her life and her lymphoma seems like it's been there for a while and he is professional when it comes to this stuff. By that I don't mean he should herd his emotions like cats but that he, more so than the rest of us understands her pathology and psychology. He'd know better than we would, that catering to her at this point is a futile endeavour and he wouldn't do it.
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Nov 15, 2006 10:27:57 GMT -5
This episode left me with the same feeling you have after you chow down a big bag of Doritos, along with the entire bag of Oreo cookies and all that rinsed out with a 2 liters of Diet Coke: nauseated!
The episode had great potential. Nice topics could have been tackle in it; and the only way the writers could go was to show a completely out of nowhere internal turmoil for Goren: take care of Mother or do a most excellent job? Decisions; decisions!
At some point Goren will have to open his mouth and speak. Not Eames nor Ross expected Goren to pour out his personnal/familial problems, but Goren was NEVER presented as a character who doesn't know how to make a decision. The flip-flopping was not only annoying but also irrelevant. Even with Mama Goren's illness, she wasn't alluded in the previous five years as a demanding person. She seemed to have boundaries, like someone else mentionned, and she respected them. When Goren's mother was mentionned in an episode, she wasn't directly involved: it was her doctor, a nurse, or Goren himself who introduced her. Her phoning furiously Goren didn't make a believable transition from Mama Shadow to Mama Reality.
One element I was praying would happen was a link to what we were presented in Wee Small Hours where we got a glimpse of what Mama Goren "really" thought about his two sons. She didn't seemed to recognize Robert's devotion to her as a positive attribute and appeared to favour her other son over him. This was proven in this episode: Mama Goren clings to Robert as her last lifeline, but given the choice she would rather have her other son by her side.
I disagree with the poster who said that Ross and Eames failed Goren. Goren is responsible for some of his miseries. He has set out the premise of his own downfall, not only in this particular episode but over the years too. He has build walls around him that some people wouldn't even try to climb. I think with the distance he sets with other people, he's darn lucky that Eames extended herself to him so many times. I, personnaly, wouldn't have been this empathetic to his cause...after all you reap what you sow. I think Goren had unrealistic expectations about his work circle; he expected them to guess what he was going through.
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Post by musicwench on Nov 15, 2006 11:23:18 GMT -5
Gotta chime in one more time in defense of my girl, Eames for those who still seem to think she should have been more understanding towards Goren.
She probably shouldn't have treated Goren like she did but human nature being what it is, I think her reaction was quite understandable after all she did trying to reach out to him and covering for him while he went back to see his mother. While Goren's outburst was also understandable, he was really being kind of an ass and he could have said "I can't talk about this now..." or something, not "back off" in that tone of voice. I think Eames probably did get her feelings hurt. Did you see her expression as the elevator doors closed between them? When you try to extend yourself to someone and they lash out at you and then later pretend like it never even happened, well, you tend to get kind of pissed and closed off.
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Post by BegToDiffer on Nov 15, 2006 11:29:31 GMT -5
SOAP CITY HERE WE COME. Good Lord, I thought for a minute I was watching General Hospital and All My Children rolled into one show. After awhile, I could barely stand to watch it. Cassie, you are right. It is not the same LOCI and I don't enjoy it anymore. I can do with out the melodrama and the new writers. While Eames snarky behavior is wonderful, that pissed off act with Bobby wasn't Eames' character at all. At first she was sympathetic, but then it was like, "what's your problem, Bobby?" She knows that his mom is very ill, why even ask? I never thought I would describe her as cold, but towards the end I almost had to put a sweater on. I could swear that Mr. Wolf said we would never meet Bobby's mother and brother. And here we are. Suddenly getting chummy with everyone's family. What next, a visit from the ghost of dear old Dad? A couple other things: There is a law called the Family Leave Act. Bobby should have used it. While police may have to work on holidays, if someone is on leave, they are not called in. Since it was obvious he wasn't up to putting all his attention into the case, why didn't the Captain just take him off and send him home? Also, please don't think I'm not sympathetic to the mentally ill. But all this nashing of the teeth was so overboard. And to Techguy- I clearly understand where you are coming from. War is hell in every sense of the word. My sister was there the same time you were. It was heartwrenching for us. I'm so glad you came through safe and that I have a chance to know you, even if its just through this board. If LOCI stays on this path, I'm with Bobby. Fire me if you want to.
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Post by betty on Nov 15, 2006 11:56:29 GMT -5
Hello All,
This is the first message I have ever posted to a INTERNET forum. Anyway, I got so jazzed up about last night's episode I had to join in. I've recently discovered CI and I love it but since I'm still catching up on seasons 1-5 I'm finding season 6 enjoyable but jarring because it is so different from previous seasons.
I've quickly become a big fan of VDO but didn't enjoy him last night. Rita M. did a great job but I thought that the mom was straight out of 'the Sopranos' mimicking that show's portrayal of Olivia Soprano's borderline personality disorder perfectly. Sadly, because Goren has become so large his clothes reminded me of Tony S. as well.
I loved that Eames wasn't having his temper display and called him on his professionalism. Clearly dealing with his mom has caused him to have arrested development. His character seems to be so caught up in seeking mom approval that he hasn't developed his own personal life and now is allowing this dependency to ruin his professional life.
I hope the writers take him back to some sense of calm. Maybe a leave of absence is on order with him returning later in the season trimmer, more relaxed. Just a thought.
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Post by SarahIvy on Nov 15, 2006 13:09:45 GMT -5
Quite the "WOW" of an episode, eh? I was very very worried, but I thought they pulled it off without getting too drippy. In terms of Bobby suddenly seeming to have more trouble with his mother....my personal theory is that the Super Needy Frances is perhaps a newer trait. Perhaps these aspects of her personality have always been lurking there, rearing up once in awhile, but not in the forefront, and in a way that Bobby could deal with. Now she's very very sick, and he is probably looking at the very last of his time with her. Her neediness is probably not only greatly heightened, but it's effect on him is no doubt much more intense. His own guilt and love for his mom are clouding that normally stunning insight he possesses and he can't turn his gift for understanding on himself or his situation. I thought it was a great portrayal of someone's very carefully built compartments finally crumbling...it felt true to the character to me that after all his self imposed structure and strength, when it all became too much he would reach critical mass and toss off all responsibility for what happened to him. I think a lot of people have felt that, I know I have. That slow burn where the pressures are building, so you hold on tightly, but ultimately something tips you over (and it can be something seemingly insignificant to an outside observer) into the abyss. And in that abyss you hit the final moment when you cannot take one bit more, and you are just DONE and do not care. For Bobby it seemed to be that moment at work when Frances hung up on him after threatening to walk out. He'd been *just* holding it together, but for whatever internal reasons, that was the moment he reached his limit and his house of cards toppled. I had no problem whatsoever with how Eames reacted to him. In terms of maintaining that professional veneer and also protecting her own emotional health (remember, Goren is the emotive one, but Eames has had some very serious sh*t to deal with this season, on top of not being a very emotional gal), I thought she was very supportive. Until he just finally pissed her right off with his tantrum. Sure, I felt badly for Goren when she got peevish at him, but he truly did bring it on himself, and while her reaction maybe wasn't the best, I thought it rang true for the situation. I would have probably reacted to him the exact same way, only with more cussing. She put herself out there multiple times, asking him questions, and giving him ample opportunity to share with her and let her help. She got so shut down. I thought her willingness to cover for him early on was great. After all her attempts to help him, for him to be so rude to her was no doubt pretty hurtful AND intensely frustrating. Pure speculation, but also seemed to me like *perhaps* she had clued Ross in at some point...when Ross said (quite gently for him), "We'll try and get you out of here soon" it felt to me as though offscreen perhaps Eames had very briefly filled him in. His tone was much more understanding than it previously had been. Someone upthread was pointing out that Ross is new....other than rumor and innuendo, what he's seen of Goren is all he knows, and I think that's an excellent point to keep in mind. Clearly Goren is not opening up to his coworkers or making any effort to explain himself, and Ross must be fairly baffled and annoyed by him, which I think is reasonable. You know, I'm going to shut up now...this is more than enough coffee induced rambling from me, and I haven't evenmentioned the "story" which I thought was quite good. The father in particular was very powerful, and I've got some babbling I could do about that, but I'll save it for another post
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Post by madger on Nov 15, 2006 13:40:39 GMT -5
AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGG. I forgot it was Tuesday yesterday and went to bed early!!!!! Now I'm waiting for itunes to put this episode up. From all your comments, I can't wait.
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vdofan1
Silver Shield Investigator
Made ya look....
Posts: 178
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Post by vdofan1 on Nov 15, 2006 14:03:48 GMT -5
WOW, lots of great insight and much more eloquently expressed than anything I can come up with, but that's not going to stop me. Caution: you have been warned... A very strong episode for character backstory - which I have to admit was why I was anticipating this episode. Everyone gathered at home with family and loved ones, except Goren. Something we've all KNOWN but sad and harsh to SEE. I don't think it was too soapy. Or maybe I've just gotten as weary and beaten down as Goren, in trying to find Balcer's LOCI in Leight's new world. And someone mentioned the boundaries that Goren should have had with his mom. Well, he's probably had those boundaries in place for years when dealing with her chronic condition of schizophrenia, but throw in the new diagnosis of lymphoma and doctors' speaking of her time left "in terms of months" and that goes right out the window. I could really relate to that confict. (My mom suffered from a chronic health issue for years and we dealt with that - balanced that. But when she went into kidney/liver failure almost over night, all bets were off. It changes everything.) Didn't really care about the crime in this one, but like I said, it wasn't what I was looking for in this one. Although, one thing about it bugs me. Anyone catch that shoulder bag/evening purse explanation - fine, makes sense. But what about the bra (with straps) they find and then the spaghetti strap dress??? Nice look! Sorry..... but that just really bugged me. Also, as I think it was Techguy says, it stayed with the year's theme of parents and the pressure and expectations exerted on their children.
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Post by saharatea on Nov 15, 2006 14:11:41 GMT -5
Well I loved the episode, all of it. Our family is dealing with a similar situation, and I loved that the episode reflected that reality of how real people act in unpleasant situations. It could have been much more "soapy", I think it was reasonable. There would have been something wrong if it was "regular" Goren during all that's happening in his life.
I think we finally see he can't push the off button on his work or his personal life, they HAVE to overlap, just like it does for most of us in the real world. If he'd been the same old quirky Goren, it would have put me off completely.
And for those that think Rita's character was overdone, yikes, I thought it was underdone. My M-I-L is dying and is WAY more demanding and nutty and irritating and difficult to deal with, it gets ugly at the end, very ugly. Sometimes people imagine death as being this peaceful end to a long life with the family gathered, gently comforting and grieving each other...maybe for some. But in reality it can also be a time when siblings aren't speaking, the dying person is mean and nasty and hateful and vicious, and things are definitely not in the Hallmark realm. That's why I think Rita's role was right on key.
And enough already about VDO's weight or size...he was in plainclothes, for one thing, which don't hide as well as a nicely cut suit. And he was tired and exhausted and layered up for the cold. Cut him some slack!
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