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Post by mwendyr on Nov 16, 2006 14:43:21 GMT -5
That's actually quite interesting. I don't follow horoscopes but I have known them to be true for me as well. Annoying, because it always proves my sisters point... Anyway, I realise it's obviously a coincidence but it does make it all the more interesting. Thanks for that. Wendy Hugs
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Nov 16, 2006 14:44:34 GMT -5
I was unsure as well about the number of days the episode spanned... but I think I remember at least four different shirts on Bobby... so while that's not an exact indiction, I often used to tell differing days by marking Bobby's ties... so its in the same vein ... so four days?? Four outfits; four days indeed! How long does thanksgiving lasts in the US? In Canada, we only have Monday off. I ask because when G/E were at the car dump (??) Eames said that they were closed for the week-end (or closed til Monday, I don't recall) so we can assume that it was either Saturday or Sunday. I sure miss the timeline at the bottom of the screen; I don't notice the different outfits and when there was a discrepancy or a misunderstanding it was easy to go back and check.
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Post by madger on Nov 16, 2006 15:16:20 GMT -5
Thanksgiving in the US is always on the last Thursday of November, many of us get a four day weekend.
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Post by SarahIvy on Nov 16, 2006 15:37:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I didn't realize that I actually used the date cards until they were gone It looks to me like the daughter went out Wednesday night before Thanksgiving, the case started on Thanksgiving (Thursday) and went through the weekend, ending on Sunday. I thought the subject matter of the case was handled sensitively, but I do wish it hadn't been shuffled off to the side quite so much. Given that I've been less than invested in some of the stories so far this season (ok, and last season) I was very pleased to be emotionally drawn into the plot. Both parents were very convincing and realistically etched, I thought. The ending with the father in particular I found very powerful....a true ode to making sure those you love know how you feel about them, and that they know you put them first no matter how stringent your beliefs in other matters. I saw a lot of my father in the commissioner, but thankfully (and I truly felt deeply thankful watching that scene) I do know that no matter what I can count on my dad regardless...but it has not always been that way, and I understood how that daughter must have felt and why she was so torn in going to him for help.
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Post by janetcatbird on Nov 16, 2006 15:49:19 GMT -5
Techguy, big tight hugs to you. I'm sorry this was rough, and I am very glad that you were able to heal and come out OK.
There were some responses about if Amanda couldn't tell her parents "I'm going to a club" then how in the world could she talk about the cover-up? I really liked the interplay between Fran Drescher and the actress who played Amanda--they really implied the connection, and Ms. Drescher as the mother seemed to sense that something was wrong, but not sure what. Maybe she was afraid to ask too much about her days in Iraq--I don't want to put any more pressure on her, she'll talk if she needs to. Sometimes that's hard to gauge when someone is stressed with serious problems--should you encourage them to talk about it, or anything but? And as Wesley repeated several times, "You wouldn't understand"--even if she is her mother, married to a duty-driven cop, she can't truly relate and empathize.
I mentioned earlier that the father, Leland, blew me away. He was a company man for lack of a better word, with a strong sense of duty, and that's what he clung to when Amanda disappeared/died. I remember noting it with the nurse in "Stress Position"; you cling to procedures and routine because they help keep some semblence of order and control. But I never doubted that Leland loved Amanda--his ending aria of regret that he didn't express it, that he hadn't opened up for Amanda to talk to him. Was it just one thing he did wrong or the build-up over her whole life? My heart ached for him there, and to see Ross at his shoulder--another Dad in a difficult family situation, who also focuses on work and duty, wanting to be a friend but not knowing how to help...God.
So much pain. Sick as I felt at the mass murder, I couldn't help but sigh for Wesley, grieving and mourning over the deaths of his brothers in arms. The friend, Trish, who was too scared and guilty to really help. The parents and family. It hurt to watch.
--Catbird
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late2theparty
Rookie
"A house without books is like a room without windows." Horace Mann
Posts: 9
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Post by late2theparty on Nov 16, 2006 15:51:44 GMT -5
Hey Cassie, lucky for me I don't have a love/hate relationship with Ross. Other than the fact that his arrival is timed with this need the writers have to insinuate the personal lives of the characters into the story, my only regret is that they didn't take the same time and care when fleshing out Barek's character.TechGuy, what you said.In defense of Eames, especially, I can only say that she is trying to be there for Goren. It's not her fault that he isn't grabbing the lines she's throwing to him. I can see Eames being hurt. That makes sense. What I can't see is her giving him the cold shoulder when he got back. I think it is an injustice to her character to write her that way.
Though a direct apology would have been nice, I think I heard an implied apology in their last conversation before entering the interrogation room to get the confession.
Goren: It’s hard to get a confession if he’s incapable of guilt. Maybe we should tell him he’s got nothing to feel guilty about.” (his use of the word “we” and his tone of voice rising on the end in question instead of being a statement was bridge building, a peace offering) Eames: You do that. (her tone still hurt/angry)
So, during the interrogation when she says’ “Come on you’re not buying this. Are you?” That was her following the plan, accepting the peace offering as well as doing her job, because the way she was written this episode she could have just as easily gone the other way.
About Eames and Goren: Perhaps the reason that Goren did not respond when Eames asked was because she asked when others were present. Maybe he didn’t want them in his personal life.
About Goren and Eames: Absolutely no excuse for him to tell her to “Back off!”Goren has always been emotional, and we've seen him lose his temper in the past... The desk sweeping was unprofessional, but not out of character for someone under so much stress. Shoving things off a desk in a fit of temper moves past unprofessional to immature and deserved a “What the hell was that, Bobby?” Because what was that? He’s not 12, though even that wouldn’t make the action acceptable. That’s simply to point out that he knows better. (and our characters deserve to be treated with more respect).
Walking away was good. If the only way you can control yourself is to walk away, then you should. Although Eames’s, “Do you want to throw it all away?” seemed a bit much for the situation. After all he was only snapping at a person who under any other circumstance would have been a suspect, especially when the murder turned political. Geez, a week before the wedding, Carlos was family after all. Had it been anyone else, Goren’s point that the father’s lack of sympathy for others might have been a causative factor in her death would have been expected.
Then I’m supposed to believe that not only did Goren make his final declarative statement in the squad room for all to hear, but he threw his personal notebook down on a desk that wasn’t his own. This just heightens the silliness of it all, because if I remember correctly just like a teacher it is next to impossible to fire a cop in New York and certainly not because of refusal to do paperwork, once.
If I were to witness such tantrums, I would recognize them for what they are human behavior not human nature, a choice he made. I would have less respect for him and though I hadn’t thought of it before after reading Sirenna’ s words, "after all Alex must wonder if he's going to allow himself to lose it like that again at a key moment and get them both killed in the line of duty.” I would wonder that as well.I liked this episode, though it almost felt as though I was watching a different series. Sort of a parallel-universe LOCI. A different series---exactly. Like fanfic, where the names are the only thing you recognize. Like fanfic where a story about the personal lives of these particular characters belongs. And heck, if you want superhuman people to watch, check out the show Heroes or something. Maybe they never make mistakes and are always professional and look like they don't exist outside their jobs. Me, I like my characters to show their flaws sometimes. I can relate better to them. I've always found this view to be saddening. The essence of good story telling just like the essence of a good life is that people rise above their "flaws" not succumb to them. That doesn't make them superhuman, that makes them healthy humans. A few years back while at work, a friend was leaving to be with her dying mom. but she had some reports that had to be done for the corporate office, before her plane took off.... I can still see her.....standing up and letting out a cry...... Goren's fustrations where real..... torn between duty to work and his home life. You are right his frustrations were very real. The objection is to the extreme way that they had him literally"act them out". We've gone from "As the Criminal Mind Works" to "As the Detectives Angst." "As the Detectives Angst" Perfect! Add me to the Snatch Leight Black Ops Team
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 16, 2006 16:13:20 GMT -5
Then I’m supposed to believe that not only did Goren make his final declarative statement in the squad room for all to hear, but he threw his personal notebook down on a desk that wasn’t his own. just a note about this... I was tracking this the second time I watched this and the binder actually ended up on Eames' desk. I suspect he meant for it to go on his, but when he went to throw it it went farther than intended... but there is also something sort symbolic if he leaves it for her, intended or otherwise...
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Nov 16, 2006 16:55:29 GMT -5
It looks to me like the daughter went out Wednesday night before Thanksgiving, the case started on Thanksgiving (Thursday) and went through the weekend, ending on Sunday. It makes perfect sense... but still... 8 hours missing is not a long time to call MCS, the Army and to start a search of this magnitude. Ah well I'm fussing, I'll let it go and focus on something else. I was and still am a fierce advocate of flawed characters, yet what I don't enjoy is a nose-bleed downshift that leaves me confused. I like it when the pieces of the puzzle actually fit together, not that some pieces were trimmed in order to fit. Goren is a character that was presented and played as an emotionnaly untouchable persona and even if we suspected that something did go wrong in his past, we were left hanging on what it might have been. Goren never acknowledged that anything was wrong with him and made sure that no one got close enough to uncover the truth. I didn't believe the former to be true, I even called him an hypocrit on another thread. I've come to accept that Goren will never express his turmoils, demons, call them what you want. Now, not only am I confronted with them, Goren still isn't talking, so for me it's the worst of both worlds...
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Post by sobergal95 on Nov 16, 2006 17:11:28 GMT -5
It makes perfect sense... but still... 8 hours missing is not a long time to call MCS, the Army and to start a search of this magnitude. Ah well I'm fussing, I'll let it go and focus on something else. I agree mimi, but this was not any 22 year-old missing for 8 hours, but the deputy commisioner's daughter. I would guess he's enough of a big wig that if he wanted MCS to look for his missing poodle, he could pull those strings. But my question is this: why was the Army there? Yeah, yeah, she's one of their own, but Is there a base in Rockford?
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Post by saharatea on Nov 16, 2006 19:47:39 GMT -5
Patcat: you said "But he always seems to understand others much better than he does himself."
Very true, I think this makes alot of sense. I mean, do any of US really know this character?
I really like the surprises and the personal touch, even though it annoys some. Frankly, I watch the original Law&Order, and know virtually nothing about Sam Waterston's character, and so to me he has become somewhat robotic in my mind...with Bobby the layers do help make him a fuller character, defects and all.
I know the purists want LO:CI to be a purely crime drama without any risk of soap opera tendencies, but I like the more personal touch. I wish they'd dig more into Eames character and her past. And of course, I find Bobby fascinating. Life is ugly and unfair, and people don't often act their best.
I totally do not get the person who said life happens, illness happens and people die all the time, said so matter of factly, like that should be accepted and people shouldn't fall apart (or don't fall apart) when they deal with it. In either case, it DOES affect them, sooner or later, and they are affected by major life changes. Maybe they don't realize it, maybe they've tried to tune it out and pretend they aren't affected, but they are, like it or not. Maybe they don't "lose it" like Bobby but unless they are made of granite, they feel it in some way or another.
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Post by Cassie on Nov 16, 2006 21:37:51 GMT -5
Hey Cassie, lucky for me I don't have a love/hate relationship with Ross. Other than the fact that his arrival is timed with this need the writers have to insinuate the personal lives of the characters into the story, my only regret is that they didn't take the same time and care when fleshing out Barek's character. Well its a girl thing........ I love hating his character. I feel Ross is a bright man... but he started out with a chip on his shoulder..... As for fleshing out the character of Barek. Just like the character, Bishop, she was never really given a chance by the fans. Give it a couple of years....and you will hear...."you know Barek wasn't that bad after all, remember when....." Season 6 has it issues..... the music really bothers me, and I miss the chinchungs...and the time lines..... But Season 5 and 4 and even Season 3, people where complaining. The show wasn't as dynamic as Season 1 and 2. VDO had health issues in Season 4... And also it seems like depending on which board your on.....its a different tune....Some boards... VDO, can do no wrong. He saves the show. On this board VDO can hardly ever do anything right....and only the writers from seasons past can save the show. I wish Rene Balcer had stayed, But.... I prefer some kind of finish to the series....question answered. then getting up one day...and the show is taken off the air. And I do appreciate that the new writing team are trying to live up to ALL of the fans expectations. I remember reading in a very early article. that Goren wasn't going to be this stable kind of detective. So if he blows a fuse, and his career. I wouldn't like it....but..... I bet this is the last season for the whole show..... which is sad, cause even if it was getting somewhat *soapy* I enjoyed watching the new characters unfold......Logan, Wheeler......Ross..... I am a Bobby Goren fan first and foremost.... and he was created by the past and present writers and actor.... And it was a team effort.
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Post by raeangel319 on Nov 16, 2006 21:47:09 GMT -5
That, and finding out Alex's husband's name was Joe... wonder if his last name was Smith. A little unexpected but it was cool to hear, finally having it revealed on the actual show. HAHAHA!!! i think we've all been calling him "Joe Eames"!!! well now...JOE wouldn't be an Eames if her father's name is John Eames now would he? Alex either kept her maiden name...or changed her name back after her husband died. unless by some weird coincidence she married a guy with the same last name as her (it happens...not often...) and effie...if you watch, i believe goren walked right by eames' chair, which means if he threw it a little farther..over the first desk, eames' desk...and it landed on his own desk. eames seems to, yes, be upset at goren..but not pissy and steering clear of him. i did notice when he came back after cooling off, that she looked at him..but he didn't acknowledge her at all. then after the interrogation...she kept glancing at him as she gathered her things and left...then seemed to be waiting for him (with ross) outside of the interrogation room. i'd think if she was really pissed at him she'd have at least been at her desk by then or something...unless ross wanted them to stay to talk to them?
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Post by osmondfan on Nov 17, 2006 0:19:36 GMT -5
I fianlly got around to watching my tape of this episode. I thought it was a really good one, especially with all the personal tidbits we learned about Goren and Eames.
The only aspect I am going to comment on is Eames' behavior towards Goren. I found it to be spot on. She tries and tries to get him to talk to her and to let her help him, only to be rebuffed and told very coldly to back off. Goren may be dealing with things in his life, but he is not the only one with problems, and his problems are not Eames' fault. If he is going to choose to be at work instead of taking time off to be with his mother, than Eames needs him to be focused and alert, not throwing tantrums and smarting off to those higher up. I especially liked her "What the hell was that?" He got angry, so he just throws a tantrum and the storms off?
I normally like Goren a lot, and I know he's got issues at home, but I thought his behavior towards Eames and his captain was really poor.
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Post by osmondfan on Nov 17, 2006 0:26:58 GMT -5
I am also surprised that people think the end is nearing for Goren and Eames and maybe CI altogether. I have never enjoyed the show more than I am enjoying this season. I think the changes that were made breathed a new life into the show and I am looking forward to many more seasons of Goren, Eames, and whoever else comes along.
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Post by Techguy on Nov 17, 2006 4:07:55 GMT -5
I'm going to say one more thing about why this episode is so troubling and frustrating and then I promise I'll shut up, at least until the next episode airs.
Why was it necessary to include the detail that Amanda, a woman engaged to be married, was having an affair with someone in her unit? Her fiance Carlos, of all people, rationalizes her behavior by saying it's understood to be OK if the people involved do it while in uniform but not when it comes off and they're in civilian clothes. What exactly is that supposed to mean, and whatever does it have to do with why Amanda was murdered? And then on top of everything, it turns out Amanda was "executed" by her former lover because she was on the verge of divulging the details of a revenge mass murder in Iraq.
This episode is, or should have been, about how a young woman struggles with her conscience knowing what she does about what happened during her tour of duty and that's what got her killed. Was it really necessary to add on that she was having an affair with someone who turns out to be the killer? When Carlos rationalizes her behavior, he makes it sound like service men and women are having sex with one another as a matter of course, and this is also very troubling for me. It's as if Amanda's story has been reduced to salacious titillating details, with a slinky black dress and bra thrown in for good measure, while she and the reason for her murder have been set aside as irrelevant.
Once again, for the final time the war imagery and this metaphor: Amanda's Bronze Star is found in the trash, her body in an industrial waste drum. I think this about sums up how TWAH regards the issue of returning vets in general, and Amanda in particular.
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