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Post by LOCIfan on Feb 7, 2007 20:38:43 GMT -5
But you can clearly see the old Goren is gone. Like I said before, Is this due to writting? or Due to the fact VDO is tired of playing the same character for the last 5 yrs? It has been said that many of the quirks we have come to love were of VDO's development. Is he just showing up and playing the scene, waiting for his contract to end, and get out? Only time will tell. I would love to blame the writers and hope things change. I'd like to think it's due to writing rather than burnout by the actors. From what I've read about VDO's love for his craft, I think he would try to make the most out of the script he's given. Well, I think especially on this board, where we've shown great respect for the writers of this series, that it's evident that the writers for CI love their craft and are just as dedicated to it as VDO is to his. It might be easy to blame the writers, but I don't think it's always fair. For faults in the story itself, or the characters and their depth or lack thereof, yes. I think that's a fair critique and can be laid at the writers' feet. However, to blame the writers for shortcomings in VDO's performances isn't kosher. Nobody is responsible for VDO's performance but VDO. A truly dedicated actor brings his A game to whatever material he's working with. And while he may have issues with the writing this season, as many of us here do, it only adds to the demise of the series to see him moving, lackluster, through the episodes. I wouldn't let VDO off the hook. Not saying I want to let the writers off the hook either. I just can't blame them for VDO's performance in addition to the shortcomings in the scripts. VDO does, indeed, seem to me to be just showing up and going through the motions until his contract is up. And that's all on him. Not the writers or directors or co-stars or anybody else. The lack of engagement in VDO's performances is one reason that I've been enjoying the Logan/Wheeler episodes more than the Goren/Eames epis. Noth is obviously having fun. He's bringing a great deal of energy and enthusiasm to Logan this season. Can't comment on Albatross, as I haven't seen it yet, but couldn't help throwing in my 2ยข.
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Post by MissEllie on Feb 7, 2007 21:06:03 GMT -5
It just seems to me this season's writers just aren't "into Goren's head" like in previous seasons. I have no doubt he's ready to move on to other projects, but I really feel like he's doing the best with what he has been given to work with. I think the material is just flat, and there's only so much you can do with that, even with your A game. JMHO.
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Post by outerbankschick on Feb 7, 2007 21:14:23 GMT -5
I've had to hold onto this all day and the first thing I want to do is say THANK YOU to the writer's for letting us have a glimpse of a moment between Goren and Eames about what happened between them in TWAH. It was a well done scene and the fact that, as someone said earlier, it could have such an impact in barely half a minute says a great deal about the talents of both actors. I liked the storyline this time around, though the Faith Yancy bits were getting on my nerves. I don't watch Nancy Grace, though I have seen a snippet or two of her show, and the parodies of her are just painful to watch. And that shrill, nasal voice of the actress who portrays Faith - yikes! I thought the shot of Katie's face in the end was spot on. She was so sure that this woman who had been her role model couldn't have done anything wrong, and then to have to realize that she had stood by and watched a man get murdered because she was trying to figure out a way to salvage her reputation/political career. . .whoa! I have to say, I did like Goren's gentle deference to Eames' feelings about the subject. I also liked when he said, very quietly but matter-of-factly, "Then she shouldn't have taped him. . . She should have left him." Did anyone think of Hillary and Bill during this episode? I think that's what the writer's intended, though I have to say, the wife in this episode comes across much softer than Mrs. Clinton. I also loved the line, "We're detectives. We don't stalk." The little smile that followed was priceless!
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Post by outerbankschick on Feb 7, 2007 21:50:34 GMT -5
I'm going to take a stab at this, though I hope I'm not too brain dead after my crazy work-day to make sense.
I don't think VDO is "off" this season at all. He stated in an interview that Goren would be less eccentric and more existential this season. I believe that is what we're seeing.
After so many years of burying himself in work (and doing a fabulous job of catching bad guys), maybe Bobby is beginning to wonder if that's all there is, or if maybe there's something more. His mother is dying, a fact which he seems to be having trouble accepting (a la the "she's a fighter" comment in "Siren Call"). He loves her deeply, and he's tied to her in a way that people often are to a person they have had to care for over a long period of time. After being the one responsible for her for so long, how is her impending death supposed to affect him?
Despite the fact that I love the "super-cop" aspect of him, I love the human aspect of him much more. He not only wants to solve the crimes and catch the criminal, he HAS to. He's that crusader that Jo alluded to in "Blind Spot". His relentless pursuit of evil has defined his life and now he seems to be in a strange place of reflection and introspection.
If anything, this season has made him more human. I can't complain about that.
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Post by LOCIfan on Feb 7, 2007 22:17:30 GMT -5
It just seems to me this season's writers just aren't "into Goren's head" like in previous seasons. I have no doubt he's ready to move on to other projects, but I really feel like he's doing the best with what he has been given to work with. I think the material is just flat, and there's only so much you can do with that, even with your A game. JMHO. Well, with only a few exceptions, the writers this season are the same writers from last season and the season before that, and the season before that. Certainly WL has his own take on Goren, and we all miss Balcer, who perhaps knows the character better than anyone, including VDO. Is there a particular writer(s) you feel isn't "into Goren's head" or is it just all of them? The different writers put different stamps on the episodes they write, just as the actors put their unique stamps on the characters they portray. Maybe it's one or two writers in particular that you take issue with? That would be an interesting discussion. My only objection to what you posted is that it couldn't possibly be VDO who's failing the material because he loves his craft. The implication is that you're suggesting that's untrue of the writers. I think many of the writers have demonstrated, in interviews, and in their stellar work year after year, that they are equally as devoted to their craft and would not simply phone it in. And, there is a difference between flat material and a flat performance. Even when both exist simultaneously. If you found the material flat and VDO's performance flat, then it would seem you have an issue with both the writing and VDO's performance. VDO is more than capable of turning in a dynamic performance when dealing with flat material. He's also capable of turning in a flat performance when dealing with dynamic material. The two are separate and distinct.
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Post by DonnaJo on Feb 7, 2007 22:17:57 GMT -5
Wow, right on, outerbanks! Forgot about the "more existential Bobby" that VDO talked about in his interview. That definitely would explain his new persona.
I like the part about him feeling that he HAS to continue to be the crusading profiler, in spite of what might be in his own best interest. Would explain the desk trashing - he is fighting with two sides of himself.
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Feb 7, 2007 22:27:59 GMT -5
I've watched this episode several times, and though at first I wasn't impressed by the story and the performances, the more I watched it and did some scenes in slow motion, the more I began to appreciate the episode.
I have to disagree with whoever said VDO wasn't brining his full game, and for that matter the same for Erbe. Yes, the performances are different from what we are used to viewing and NOT the Goren of old, he is the Goren of today.
VDO did check out some of season four and five and so did the writers. However, I think that all parties are involved and invested this season, it's just different and this takes getting used too.
I highly suggest that everyone watch the episode just to observe VDO and Erbe's subtle looks, posture, mannerisms, etc. If you can use slow motion go for it, it's truly amazing what these fabulous actors are able to portray in what equates to seconds of reel time over and over again through out the episode.
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rue721
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 101
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Post by rue721 on Feb 8, 2007 1:24:41 GMT -5
Ok, so to be honest, I missed this episode, but I wanted to say something about VDO "phoning it in."
I don't think that he's suddenly stopped caring about Goren as a character, I think he's just making acting choices that aren't really working in terms of connecting with viewers. VDO is reading Goren is depressed and flattened out... which makes sense givin the material. But how he's been portraying that is by losing all energy and charisma on screen, which isn't a fun viewing experience.
There is a difference between giving a realistic portrayl and giving a great performance- I think maybe VDO is getting TOO much in Goren's head, and forgetting that this is really all about entertainment. He's got to find a new line between Goren the depressed guy and Goren, the character in a show he's basically got to carry (I mean just because of the structure of CI, not to slight Erbe). He's got to find a line between (realistic) depression and (entertaining) charisma.
I don't think it's necessarily "bad" acting, even- I think he just tried out a certain way of portraying the material, but it obviously isn't connecting so well with the audience, so he should maybe try something else.
As for the writing, I think that's gotten pretty flat, too. I think the problem for the writers is that they've got to find a way for a depressed, lethargic character to solve a crime- and that means making the character jump through fewer hoops, which means making the crimes/arias a lot less complicated.... which makes for a boring show, unfortunately.
Again, I think they were trying to make a statement... and while the statement is still valid, they are maybe going about it the wrong way, and need to start thinking outside of the box.
In truth, I was taught that depressed characters are impossible to write because they can't carry a show- namely, because someone who can carry a story needs to have larger than life appetites and a huge will to propel themselves- and the story- along.
Anyway, I don't really fault either the writers or VDO, because I think they might be trying to do the impossible, by making Goren both depressed and entertaining and charismatic.... but I believe that they could do better by starting to think outside the box a little more.
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Post by Techguy on Feb 8, 2007 1:37:37 GMT -5
I'm perplexed too about why Mrs. Pagolis, or any woman for that matter, would stay with a slimeball like Mr. Pagolis. But if life teaches us anything, it's that intelligent people with everything going for them sometimes do very stupid things. One only has to read the details of the female NASA astronaut suspected of the attempted kidnapping/murder of her perceived rival for the affections of another astronaut. I mean, WTF???
As for the writing, and who's responsible for the words on paper that led up to what we've seen on screen in Season 6--Diana Son is responsible for both my least favorite G/E episode ("The War At Home") and least favorite L/W episode ("Tru Love"). Dishonorable mention goes to Julie Martin for my second least favorite G/E ("Siren Call") and Gina Gionfriddo for my second least favorite L/W ("Country Crossover"). I prefer my CI episodes with meat of substance to them, but if I ever got the chance to confront any of the writers, I would definitely have bones to pick with these three, and most especially Ms. Son.
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Post by ruby77 on Feb 8, 2007 2:00:00 GMT -5
I'm perplexed too about why Mrs. Pagolis, or any woman for that matter, would stay with a slimeball like Mr. Pagolis. But if life teaches us anything, it's that intelligent people with everything going for them sometimes do very stupid things. One only has to read the details of the female NASA astronaut suspected of the attempted kidnapping/murder of her perceived rival for the affections of another astronaut. I mean, WTF???
As for the writing, and who's responsible for the words on paper that led up to what we've seen on screen in Season 6--Diana Son is responsible for both my least favorite G/E episode ("The War At Home") and least favorite L/W episode ("Tru Love"). Dishonorable mention goes to Julie Martin for my second least favorite G/E ("Siren Call") and Gina Gionfriddo for my second least favorite L/W ("Country Crossover"). I prefer my CI episodes with meat of substance to them, but if I ever got the chance to confront any of the writers, I would definitely have bones to pick with these three, and most especially Ms. Son. This is only my second post on this board so forgive me if I do something wrong but I felt compelled to respond to the part about why would any woman-especially one seeming so strong as Mrs. Pagolis-stay with a guy like Mr. Pagolis. I just know from working with abused women, emotionally and physically, for so many years that the abuse is an addiction just like any other drug. Like people become so co-dependent on drugs, alcohol, even food, woman like this become co-dependent on someone and get a certain high from the man they are with. Sadly it drives some women to their witt's end before they can leave the man or hang on for so long that they are comfortable with the siutation and are afraid to change anything. But the whole of Albatross I pretty much agree with everyone here. It was a very predictable plot line but the acting was great. Also, the bar scene between Goren and Eames was just enough to let the audience know that they are okay after all the trials they have been through and it seemed to refer back to the Thanksgiving episode where Goren went "wacko." Okay, I'm done! Not too bad for a mainly lurking person. I'll have to write more! Great board everyone! ;D
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Post by SarahIvy on Feb 8, 2007 2:12:34 GMT -5
Pardon the length, there's lots to respond to and tippy type about First off, to make sure no one reads my post as being all Debbie Downer, I will say right up front- I thought both Erbe and D'Onofrio were superb in this episode. They did so much with so little, and their little exchange at the bar was just...perfect. I found that exchange in the bar over drinks disturbing. Responding "I Hope So." to Bobby's earnest & humble question, "Are We OK?" was a bit cruel & unfeeling, IMO. I will politely disagree with this, if you don't mind I thought her response was very honest and fair. I took it as him giving her an opportunity to talk, a subtle invitation, and I think she appreciated it immensely. I also felt he was content with her response (had they not been interrupted). We focus a great deal on Goren and his trials and tribulations, but to be fair Eames has had a mighty sh***y year. After the trauma of her kidnapping, having Goren become less focused and reliable and unravel before her eyes has to be unnerving and put her world on even more of a tilt when she needs stability. To me, her response said, "Yeah, I think we are, I HOPE we are....but my trust is shaky right now, things are not perfect, and I hope you understand that." Like I said ealier, I found this episode pretty "meh"...it just didn't pack much of a punch for me. It wasn't bad by any means, just grindingly average. The husband was fantastic, I wish we could have really seen Goren and Eames go at him as in days of yore. Even if he couldn't technically be charged with anything, I would have loved to have seen Eames' disgust and Goren's righteous indignation come down hard on him. I personally found the wife to be as dislikeable as the husband once we learned the role she had played in her friend's murder. Ugh. She was weak AND outrageously self-involved all at the same time. I feel if the writing had been better (yeah the writing, not the performances), I would have been more intrigued by Davo's motivations and logic. He *could* have been very interesting, and they could have gone deeper with that but it somehow got lost. His relentless pursuit of evil has defined his life and now he seems to be in a strange place of reflection and introspection. Outerbankschick, your whole post was fabulous. Just fabulous. I was just thinking about Mark Consuelos' unnecessary appearance as the US attorney. I suspect someone owed someone owed someone a favor. Rue- YES. I agree wholeheartedly with your Goren/VDO theory. I have found his portrayal dead on and very realisitic, but portraying that lack of spark and passion so realisitically isn't terribly entertaining (to a general TV viewing audience). I think this approach would have worked if they had simply made Goren's depressed/mom story arc shorter. This ties in with the library card thread....but I was lamenting recently that I miss watching Goren just sit and think, I miss watching him be buried in a book while discussion goes on all around him, until he pops his head up with some new tidbit he's just learned. I realize that this current incarnation of Goren is the way he is for a purpose, and I'm ok with that overall....but his current state of distraction and navel gazing seems to have stripped some of the intent aspects. We get so much of the backstory and motivations explained to us through Goren that having him dimmed really changes how the stories unravel. Funny sidenote, the night before this was on I was giving the husband a speech about how all middle-aged men in business suits without fail order some form of scotch/whiskey at the end of the day. Way to back up my theory, Goren
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Post by Techguy on Feb 8, 2007 2:35:04 GMT -5
Ruby77, there's absolutely nothing "wrong" with any of your post. I acknowledge how someone can become co-dependent on an abuser as someone addicted to a drug or alcohol. My reaction is perhaps best described as "what a waste" which is why I also included the example of the NASA astronaut. I also realize the answer isn't so simple, and in Mrs. Pagolis' case, I think her co-dependency went a step further, as it allowed her to assume a moral high ground as an advocate for women. Maybe she felt she had "been there, done that" so as to relate to the women's issues she desired to represent. But part of me still shakes my head in disbelief. Bottom line--Mrs. Pagolis still allowed her best friend and mentor to be killed. And I understand such things as I described about the astronaut do happen in real life, but wish it didn't have to be so.
SarahIvy, your meh comments are just as valid and enjoyable to read as someone else's high praise. If we all agreed on everything--the writing, the performances, the music--the board could shut down and there wouldn't be anything left to say. I'm glad we all have so much to debate and discuss, and the freedom to say it, whether we like or dislike something.
ETA: If someone hasn't seen this episode but would like a sneak preview, there's a video clip Here
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peachybc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 109
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Post by peachybc on Feb 8, 2007 7:04:21 GMT -5
I'm coming a bit late to the party here, having posted a lot of these thoughts on another board, but I'm interested in what you guys think here. I apologize if any of these thoughts are redundant.
Well, the long awaited, publicity error-riddled episode finally arrived and the tweetie bird landed with a disappointing thud.
Over all the episode left me underwhelmed. Gone are the complex, artfully, intricately interwoven CI stories of the past. I think the writing has been flat and uninspired this year, which is odd since we've basically got the same writers as previous years. Now we are lead thru an episode like dumb viewing creatures who cannot think for themselves. Hellooooo Warren? This lame story stuff is ticking me off!
The insertions of the street opinion poll people was irritating. Using them once maybe, but repeating them served no purpose; they felt like time fillers for a story that lacked depth. Ditto for the repeated insertions of the Faith Young TV character. Hey, just in case you don't get the story point here, we'll pound it into you. Heaven forbid we get to think for ourselves or watch Goren's mind working and actually "detecting" the case!
And the so called interrogation scene with Dave-O was beyond lame: "Wait a second we've got to come up a reason for him doing this! Okay...how about...?" BAH!!! So much for the criminal intent part of CI.
I found the bar scene out of sync. A bar?? Goren's question: "Are we all right?" and Eames's response: "I hope so." was jarring to me. I found myself saying, "What?! What is this? What are you referring to?" Are you talking about the TWAH blow up or to your different takes on the "Albatross" case, and the fact that Eames's idol is far from worthy of idol worship? The scene felt plopped in and incongruous. If CI is going to flip flop episode airings around, an effort should be made to maintain backstory continuity. Any one viewing this episode as a stand alone would be scratching their heads going, huh?
Family relationships and relationships in general are apparently the CI theme this year, and the state of the family (personal or political) is not well. As Goren points out to Eames (quoting Goren's Mom), "If she's in it, she must be getting something out of it." Eames' need for a strong, female role model temporarily clouds her normal clarity of vision.
Linda Stewart uses her dysfunctional marriage relationship to win public, political sympathy and support. It is a a lie perpetrated on herself and the public. She fosters the lie, the deception that she is the perfect woman, an ideal politician saddled with an imperfect husband, who continually drags down her good efforts. (I'm seeing shades of Hilary and Bill Clinton here, but maybe that's just me.) As despicable as Cal Stewart was, he was at least "honest" in who he was.
This high profile relationship spotlights how people wrap themselves in cloaks of denial and play vicious, destructive games -- games that impact more than themselves. Linda's inability to deal with the truth (about her marriage or her true self), causes the death of her mentor and "friend." With friends and politicians like that who needs enemies! It's the destructive, dysfunctional mindset of "maintain the image or the mirage at all costs!" A caution to us all!
In "The Rime of The Ancient Mariner" by Samuel Taylor Coleridge, the albatross bird is viewed as a good omen. The bird's presence brings them guidance and fair weather. When one of the mariners kills the bird, doom besets them and the dead bird is hung around the murder's neck as punishment. In this episode, as soon as Linda chooses to ignore the planned death of her husband, and doesn't stop the death of her friend, she sets in motion her own doom and the doom of others. Linda allows Dave-O, her bodyguard/chauffer, to do her dirty work and commit two crimes.
The third crime, and the one that I raises my ire, is the crime that Warren Leight and the writers, et. al. are perpetrating on a show I dearly love. Please, please add some spark of life and complexity back into the episodes, and give us at least one aria with Goren that takes our breaths away and provides that satisfied, "Yes!" feeling that I desperately miss. PeachyBC
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Post by DonnaJo on Feb 8, 2007 9:10:19 GMT -5
I will politely disagree with this, if you don't mind I thought her response was very honest and fair. ITo me, her response said, "Yeah, I think we are, I HOPE we are....but my trust is shaky right now, things are not perfect, and I hope you understand that." Thanks, SarahIvy, for your nice response. As Peachy mentions in her post, including this scene in Albatross instead of in Privilege was confusing. Based on what "didn't" happen between G & E in Privilege, Didn't we all assume that they reconciled off screen, weeks ago? That's why Eames response seemed "off" to me. It should have been included in the first half of the Privilege episode. Then it would make sense. I feel bad for Eames too, but I feel much worst for Bobby. At least she has a big family to comfort her & she can lean on them of she needs to. Who does Bobby have? Not his mother. Not his brother. Just his few friends. Now's not the time to be selfish, IMO. Goren needs a friendly hug, Eames. Or maybe a hand squeeze. OK?
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Post by Patcat on Feb 8, 2007 9:43:55 GMT -5
My two cents--I also thought the "Are we ok?" referred to this case, and not necessarily to the Goren/Eames relationship as a whole, although it certainly could be interpreted as the latter. My take was that thoughout this episode Goren was extremely sensitive in his dealings with Eames, something I suspect was the result of both this particular case and their recent tough times.
The idea that the wife stayed in the marriage for the sympathy she received--I hadn't thought of that, and it's an interesting one.
I'm going to hammer again a point I've probably driven into the wall, but my hope is that Goren is being taken through hell so he can emerge healed and strengthened. I don't see Mr. D'Onofrio as not being engaged; I see him playing a character undergoing great changes. I liked the Goren of PRIVILIGE--he did strong investigative work, was aware of and responded to his partner's concers, but didn't allow personal considerations to affect his work.
My problem with this episode was that the crime and its motivation had several holes.
Patcat
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