Rose
Rookie
Posts: 35
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Post by Rose on Mar 26, 2004 3:55:50 GMT -5
OK, it seems there have been two episodes that had a Manson-like cult where charismatic leaders convince their followers to kill....one of them pertained to the Gracenote motivational program and the other was the third-season "Sound Bodies" (or was it Sound Minds? I always forget) set on the fictitious "Channel Island." During the interrogation scene in the latter episode, Goren made a statement that made no sense to me: when Conny said "What did you do to her?" Goren said "Every sin carries grace within it." I didn't get his reply at all. After seeing the rerun of the Gracenote episode I wondered if the writer was deliberately referencing that episode. Of course, the statement should still make sense. Anyone have any ideas on this?
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Post by Metella on Mar 26, 2004 6:51:56 GMT -5
I stopped my religious life early.
However, I do think that he meant if a sinner asked for forgiveness - he is showered with the grace of god, so that a sin can lead to grace if you let it.
I don't think it had any connection with the previous episode at all.
Gracenote was more of a manipulation for financial gain with a little murder thrown in on the side. Manson - he was a monster who thrilled in cutting up pregnant women and delighted in the power to make it happen. Closer to Connie, but Connie is still far from that level.
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nick5oh
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 53
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Post by nick5oh on Mar 26, 2004 11:58:21 GMT -5
re: "eevry sin..."
It's from Mr. Sid Artha
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Post by trisha on Mar 26, 2004 14:02:11 GMT -5
right you are, Nick. Rose, I see your comparison of Sound Bodies to Con-text, but like Metella wrote, the motives of Fuller and Connie were too different for me to link them together like that. There was a mothership episode about a "Gracenote" type group run by a couple. Their group focused more on relationships, where Fuller's group focused on self, but they were practically carbon copies of Fuller. But, Connie and Fuller couldn't be more different. Connie's murders, like Manson's, were about power, not money. His followers supported his ego, not some posh lifestyle.
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Post by Observer2 on Mar 26, 2004 18:12:22 GMT -5
Rose, I think Metella and Trisha have good points about the differences in primary motive and levels of pathology between Sound Bodies, Con-Text and the Manson ‘family.’ At the same time, like you, I saw at least some echoes between them – perhaps more in the techniques, and in the pawns, the ones being manipulated, than in the ‘masterminds.’ I posted a little about that in the Sound Bodies thread on the Universal board. In Sound Bodies, as Tina gives the oddly rote-sounding explanation of the ‘Delta-head’ comment, her eye movement (up and to her left), indicates accessing visual memory. The reference to Manson is in Con-Text, when Goren refers to Doug’s similar eye movements that signal visualization as being like what Manson’s women did in their trials. In Sound Bodies Goren reacts to Tina’s eye movement, clearly noting it, but doesn’t say anything about it. It seems to be part of how he puts together a sense of how Connie (another echo? One who cons, as in Con-Text?) has gotten and maintains control of the girls. It’s possible there was originally a reference to it at some point in the script, that may have ended up on the editing room floor. But I don’t think "Every sin carries grace within it" refers to Con-Text at all. As Nick said, it refers to good old Sid... The question of whether any Buddhist saying ‘makes sense’ depends much on the point of view of the person trying to make sense of it. In my mind, this use both stands on it’s own and echoes my understanding of the original quote. If I remember the pattern of how Goren manipulated the girls, it was their very loyalty to Connie, their desire to take the blame and protect him, that allowed Goren to get them to reveal information – which he then used to convince Connie that one of them had given him up. So, on one level, their ‘sin’ caused them to reveal the truth. On another level, at least as I recall, my impression was that Goren was leading Connie to think that Goren had used the very weakness that allowed Connie to manipulate the girls – that Goren had replaced Connie as the person dominating them, and so had used the source of their ‘sin’ to get them to ‘repent.’ I think that would fit whatever dim concept Connie might have of the meaning of that quote – though to my mind, such manipulated ‘repentance’ would still be in the realm that the quote refers to as ‘sin.’ The level I mentioned first – using their ‘sin’ to reveal the truth – comes closer to my understanding of the quote. The quote actually relates to the true nature of existence. Interpretations vary, but one is that the true nature of everything is good. An evil man has within him a Buddha nature that could, in theory, be recognized and called forth at any time. So the old idea (in their culture) of reincarnation as a process of evolution would be wrong. Reincarnation would actually be a process of re-discovering the being’s true Buddha nature. And the same would be true for any act. No matter what the ‘sin,’ the act is, at some level, an expression of an impulse towards the good, and so carries potential grace within it that can be recognized and called forth. That was probably more than you wanted to know.... it was certainly more than Metella wanted to know! In any case, that’s the kind of sense I make out of Goren taunting Connie with that particular quote, and how I think it echoes the original meaning. Another thing the quote does is show that Goren can not only recognize references to Siddhartha in what the girls said, but also dredge up an appropriate quote at a moment’s notice. That implies to me that he had read Siddhartha at some point before this case – though that’s not really a great revelation, considering his tendency to read major works of religion and philosophy.
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Post by Metella on Mar 26, 2004 18:29:07 GMT -5
Well, you know, Observer you are wrong about that.
I was giving an "in the dark" take on what I got from the quote without spending time researching it - but I am very glad to get more background as this quote does turn up in general life & I am glad to not be so far off the mark any more.
I, however, have absolutely NO time to google for an answer, and no patience to learn to chant with my neighborhood buddhist. (actually, I'm still trying to find my neighborhood buddhist)
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Post by Observer2 on Mar 26, 2004 18:42:56 GMT -5
Should I call your neighborhood Buddhist and warn them?
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Post by Metella on Mar 26, 2004 18:44:38 GMT -5
oh, no
I get along famously with Buddhists, it is general americans I have problems with.
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Post by trisha on Mar 26, 2004 18:46:56 GMT -5
*snicker* ;D you guys are crack'n me up.
I also really enjoyed your post, Observer. So, does this mean the login troubles are over?
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Post by Metella on Mar 26, 2004 19:11:36 GMT -5
yeah, but the weird, strange, funny thing is .... it is mostly true, eh?
Buddhists & Moppets like me; normal adults I have troubles with ...... most are not honest & well, that is the main trait I demand when dealing with people.
It seems that if the girls dealing with Connie had developed some self-honesty, they may have gotten out of that jam before their dog-caring friend bit the bullet. Which is not to say a crafty and charming pschopath can't beguile someone in; but the girls were young enough & seemed to have a strong family and community backing - that they could have used those tools & run far far away from young Connie.
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Post by trisha on Mar 26, 2004 21:36:43 GMT -5
You know what they say, children and dogs are the best judges of character What you said about honesty reminded me very much of the movie Big Kahuna when Danny Devito tells the kid that Kevin Spacey is honest and then describes what that means as a personality trait. Maslow would call it part of self actualization, and that's my term of choice, as well. People who have the ability and propensity for self actualization are not just honest with other people, they are honest with themselves, and ones self is the most important person to be honest with for a healthy mind and spirit Maybe self actualization techniques could have helped Connie's girls, but I think the wool was too thoroughly pulled over their eyes for them to see anything but what he wanted them to see.
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Post by Metella on Mar 26, 2004 21:39:58 GMT -5
and the girls were girls ..... hence they were not fully formed yet and much easier prey for that vulture. No, I'm not blaming the girls for getting caught up with a charming snake - just that they may have had a viable escape hatch.
Hey, we maybe need to start an appropriate thread when it airs again, eh?
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Post by trisha on Mar 26, 2004 21:57:04 GMT -5
I was just thinking the same thing
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Post by Observer2 on Mar 26, 2004 23:19:52 GMT -5
...It seems that if the girls dealing with Connie had developed some self-honesty, they may have gotten out of that jam... Word, Metella. A consistent discipline of looking with determined honesty at one’s own life – one’s own behaviors, beliefs and psychological patterns – is the single most important practice I know of. Without it, even prayer can become an exercise in rote recitation or spiritual arrogance. With it, even the grimmest life can move in a positive direction. Such a practice would have given the girls a strong foundation – a powerful defense not only against Connie, but also against the negative peer pressure that they were trying to escape. Adolescents who have self-awareness skills seem to be more successful than most at setting their own goals and seeking out positive peers. Sadly, kids are rarely taught such skills, and find few role models in our culture. I believe that the lack of self-understanding is the primary reason people are vulnerable to being suckered in by the organization that “Gracenote” was based on. I really do believe that “the unexamined life is...” well, maybe it’s worth living for many, but only just barely. It seems to me that most people who live unexamined lives do themselves and others very little good. In my own case the old quote was quite literally true. Self-understanding has been essential to my recovery from abuse, and without recovery my life would not have been worth living. I do believe that, to paraphrase AA, a habit of fearless and searching self-examination is essential for anyone who wants to live fully. And it’s one of the best defenses against being manipulated or taken in. Being ruthless about facing self-deception makes other people’s deceptions much more obvious, and it alerts a person to when they’re having dysfunctional responses to other people’s manipulations, so they can keep them from going too far.
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Post by trisha on Mar 27, 2004 9:38:35 GMT -5
Nicely put, Observer.
According to Maslow (and many others) one of the root causes for people living in denial is fear. Fear of change, fear of failure, ect... and that reminds me of this spanish proverb:
"A vivir con miedo es como vivir a medias"
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