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Post by Techguy on Apr 4, 2007 21:21:48 GMT -5
NicoleMarie, thanks for the follow-up about Goren's signing ability.
However, I still a big problem accepting Goren's increased ability to sign as credible for reasons you already gave. Most TV viewers, myself included, have no idea that there is an English signing language, and that it's different and easier to learn than ASL. If I'm going to believe Goren could master enough English sign language to conduct an aria, I have to have some evidence, either in this episode or in backstory, that he has the time and concentration necessary to master the language.
I saw no such evidence in last night's episode. It was very clear early on that Goren depended on the signing cop to "translate" what was going on at the ice rink, and later insisted that the signing cop "translate" the conversation between the perp and his lawyer. With the stress and fatigue he has been experiencing this season, and having to devote so much of his off time to his mother, I just don't see Goren as having the necessary time and concentration required to learn English sign language. And so I still find Goren's learning enough English signing to conduct an aria as totally incredible.
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Post by hannah on Apr 4, 2007 21:28:03 GMT -5
Goren showed us he knew sign language since "Privilege." I just thought the reason he needed the cop was because they were going too fast for him. And in the interrogation room he was probably just translating for Eames. Again; I really would also like to know how he knows this.
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Post by goreamesfan on Apr 4, 2007 22:13:16 GMT -5
I was very entertained by this episode and certainly thought we recovered the "intent" in "Criminal Intent." OK, so the motive was nothing new -- do they all have to be new? I actually found the twist at the end -- that because the murderer was deaf, he didn't realize he had to kill the doctor -- to be the interesting hook. For me, that made up for the somewhat lackluster motive.
As for Goren's signing at the end, we knew he knew some sign language from Privelege (we don't really know how much), so he probably just needed to bone up on it -- and it did look to me like his signing was pretty rudimentary. What I didn't particularly like about the scene -- and what I found unrealistic -- was how Goren took over interpreting from Peter. Despite his improvement in signing, would he really jeopardize an interrogation when he has an expert signer at his disposal? It looked like grandstanding -- though it was clearly done because the audience needs Goren to take front and center during the aria. I thought it was clunky.
I really did enjoy the character of Peter, and I liked his sparring with Goren. He showed a lot of integrity and convistion -- and it takes a lot to stand up to Goren (Goren was giving him that disgusted face too). I also really liked the hint of something more between him and Eames, but I liked even better that they didn't go too far with it. So even though I enjoyed the character, I almost hope they don't pursue it. That would be very CI.
Overall, I thought this was another solid episode, and unlike many others on the site, I think the show is geting better in the second half of the season (so far).
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Post by Observer2 on Apr 5, 2007 0:48:32 GMT -5
So much I’d like to post about, so little time...
Techguy, the differences between signed English and ASL actually explain the things that Goren could, and could not, understand and say in this episode.
I used to be able to follow ASL a little bit, and I know some signed English. But I learned what I know of sign years ago, and have few opportunities to practice. Like any language, it’s a ‘use it or lose it’ ability – but one that can come back, at least to some extent, when you are once again exposed to it. If I had been tested before and after watching this episode, I would have done better afterwards – not only the signs I recognized came back to me, but they started triggering my memory of other signs I used to know. And that was in only one hour.
Whatever triggered Goren’s original study of sign, I’m confident that his base of knowledge would have been a lot broader than mine. Spending a couple of weeks dealing with so many people who use total communication (signing and speaking English at the same time) would have brought much of his original knowledge back to him, and probably increased it, without him having to spend any off-duty time studying it – though, as others have pointed out, being Goren, he would likely have augmented that by doing at least some review/study.
On the other hand, even if he had started the episode with the level of ability he showed at the end, it would still have made sense to call for an interpreter to help interview the witness at the beginning – just as it would make sense for a cop with high-school Spanish to call for an interpreter to interview a Spanish-speaking witness who spoke no English.
The same parallel applies to the skating rink situation. It’s one thing to be able to think words in English, and mentally translate them into Spanish (or signed English) well enough to speak (or sign) simple sentences at a reasonably slow pace, as Goren did in the aria. It’s something else entirely to listen to (or watch) a rapid-fire argument in slang-filled colloquial Spanish (or ASL) and mentally translate it fast enough to keep up with what’s being said. I couldn’t do it. I was able to track much of the signing during other scenes, but if those two arguing on the ice were using signs I’m familiar with, they were going too fast for me to catch them.
To me, it made sense that Goren took over signing in the final interrogation – he was working the suspect, playing on his reactions, and it’s so much more effective to do that directly, rather than have the suspect “hear” it from the interpreter. Goren works largely by establishing an emotional connection with the suspect. He needed to be talking directly to the suspect, holding eye contact with him, reading him and “speaking” to him on non-verbal, as well as “verbal” levels, to get maximum impact. That made sense to me.
All-in-all, it seemed to me that Goren’s abilities – and limitations – were set up and portrayed in a very realistic way. And I do hope D’Onofrio decides to learn how to sign for real – with his magician’s hands, expressiveness and general kinesthetic abilities I think he could be very good at it.
I fell in love with ASL back in the 70s, when some of the local feminist, anti-war and civil rights musical groups would always have interpreters at their concerts. The beauty of their language captivated me. Sweet Honey in the Rock – an extraordinary local acapella group of African-American women that made it to national fame – includes a woman who sings in sign as a full member of the group. We also have Gallaudet, and therefore a fairly large deaf community, in this area. In the 70s I took training and was certified EMT (emergency medical technician), and I figured I should know at least some sign in case I ever ended up trying to help someone from the deaf community. I would still like to really learn ASL someday...
I enjoyed this episode. I acknowledge that there were some weaknesses in it – especially in how the shooting of the administrator was (not) dealt with.
For those who aren’t aware of it, the conflict between the activists and the administrator appears to have been based on a recent conflict between students and the board of Trustees at Gallaudet over a woman the board chose as the new school president. The conflict was pretty fierce, and seemed based in much the same feelings as the activists showed in the episode. As one article about it said:
“Many didn't trust her because she grew up reading lips and speaking -- before she learned American Sign Language. And often, when she spoke to hearing people, she used her own voice.”
Much more I’d like to talk about... but only time to mention a few things.
I like Eames’ hair so much better now. The cut keeps much of her recent long, straight style, but is shaped enough to keep it mostly out of her eyes. A *great* improvement in believability for a cop’s hair. I have yet to see a real cop with hair that long wear it loose on duty; but I can go with it now, instead of constantly being pulled out of the fiction.
I liked the non-verbal interactions between Goren and Eames – the exchanged looks, and at the end the look from Goren, the nod from Eames as she stands up to signal the uniforms waiting outside the room.
I enjoyed seeing the interest between Det. Peter Lyon (Lyons?) and Eames. His transparent pleasure at seeing her again at the demonstration was endearing. And at one point, when the two of them returned together to the squad room, I thought her affect seemed lighter, more energetic or up-beat, than has been typical for her recently. Goren’s reactions to the situation were interesting – something I hope to post more about soon. But it was Ross who surprised me. He seemed almost fatherly towards Eames... I wonder if he’s kind of taking her under his wing the way he did with Wheeler... or maybe that’s just how he relates to women under his command.
It was striking to me how much more there was of Eames and the Captain than there used to be, and how much less there was of Goren. I want to look back at the past few episodes... is this typical? Was there a special focus on Eames and her relationships (with both Peter and the Captain) this time, as a natural variation? Was D’Onofrio dealing with something worse than seasonal allergies, and so given a lighter load for this episode? He’s remarkably good at masking the sounds of his congestion – there was only once that an /m/ or /n/ sound was affected – but I could hear more subtle signs of heavy cold or allergy-type symptoms through most of the episode.
It makes sense to me for there to be some variation, with occasional episodes that focus more on Eames, or even on the Captain (as one focused on Deakins in an earlier season). But I would not like to see Goren so much side-lined as a consistent pattern over time.
Naturally, D’Onofrio did a lot with what he was given. It’ll be interesting to see how he reacts if Eames continues to connect with Peter, especially with this happening right at the same time that he’s inexorably losing his mother.
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Post by Techguy on Apr 5, 2007 1:38:07 GMT -5
Observer, thanks for your insights on signing. It helps to make some sense of what was going on with Goren, although I'm still not satisfied as to how and when his ability was established in the first place. The episode "Privilege" has been mentioned, but exactly how did Goren come by his ability and which sign language is his "first language" and which is the other? I wish "Silencer" and "Privilege" plus some other episode would have provided some more backstory to explain how and why he learned sign language in the first place, and perhaps have something said in "Silencer" about why he needed the assistance of the signing cop early on but then was able to take over the interrogation. I need more than what was suggested or implied solely on the basis of what I saw and heard in "Silencer," and on this basis the credibility still escapes me.
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Post by thatdrattedcat on Apr 5, 2007 2:31:59 GMT -5
It's curious that you say this. I agree with Observer2--I found myself growing irritated and impatient with the aria as translated through Peter. You could see Goren becoming impatient as well with the pacing of the questioning; he would ask a question, Peter would translate, and he would make eye contact with both Tommy and Peter before he formulated his next question. It was putting a crimp in his style. It had less to do with Goren taking front and center and more to do with making a direct connection with the perpetrator.
Yes, this was definitely an Eames episode. I loved the subtlety, at least in the beginning, between her and Peter. They quickly moved to a first-name basis (what a shock to hear 'Alexandra'! I had to pause the recording and watch that again, haha) and obviously enjoyed each other's company. They could do worse than Peter, and I really liked his ethics regarding which conversations were private and which were public. What I didn't like was Goren pushing him to translate what Malia and Tommy were talking about at the ice rink, and the sudden freeze between Goren and Eames when he asked her to convince Peter to translate. I felt this was unusually manipulative of Goren--he either saw that they had a connection and was urging Eames to take advantage of the situation, or he was egging on his superior to exert her authority over an NYPD employee to perform an action he thought was inethical. Throughout the entire episode, Goren seems somewhat distant and cold, and maybe angry. Noted his separation anxiety when he's sitting at his desk with amusement (called back the good old days with Bishop, hah)--could anyone make out who/what was in the photo on Eames's desk?
What else I didn't like: Ross's heavy-handed approval of Eames's relationship with Peter. 'Gah!' I shouted at the television. 'Stop patronizing her! You are not her father!' I know other posters have characterized this as 'fatherly' (which it was, but not in the sense that I mean) or considerate, but to me it was just irritating and creepy. They were just having a cup of coffee! Stop getting all in her business!
Fascinating look into the deaf culture and the deaf separatist subculture. Called to mind the old CI a little. I might be the only one to say that I really enjoyed this episode. Silencer stands out in my mind as being one of the best of the recent G/E episodes. I was fiercely annoyed when I was interrupted in the middle of viewing for an hour and couldn't wait to watch what was unfolding.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 5, 2007 8:09:36 GMT -5
An interesting observation, Janet, that perhaps the writing team is deliberately shifting & changing dynamics, using less Goren & more "everybody else," in anticipation of next year. I'm wondering if there is a stipulation in VDO's extended contract, or just a verbal agreement, that he will have two or three less scenes per episode? This would make sense, especially in light of VDO's retracted comments in the OZ article about leaving CI soon. The damage was done, though. It's like being on a jury & having the judge order you to ignore what was said. You still heard it. Janet, a nice close up shot of Richie directly behind Goren in the squad room on the phone. Of course, I thought of you!
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Post by trisha on Apr 5, 2007 8:19:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty much in agreement with Observer and Thatdrattedcat on the strengths and weaknesses of the episode.
BUT, it was my gut reaction to the way Goren jumped up and took over that he had been learning (or at least refreshing) his signing skills so that there would be no need for Peter. I felt this for a few reasons: 1) What Observer said, he needed that eye contact and focus on what he was saying so that he could judge the reactions. 2) He doesn't really like Peter and wanted to dispense with him in front of everyone, including and probably especially Eames.
Reasons he doesn't like Peter? Beyond the soapy bluck that seems to be happening with Peter and Eames, and an apparent fear or Jealousy on Goren's part over it ... Peter shut him down on the eavesdropping twice. The first time, Peter eventually gave in since it was a public place, but he obviously still felt bad about doing it. The second time was when Larry was talking to his lawyer. Goren wanted him to translate even though it was clearly a privileged conversation. It frustrated Goren to not be able to pluck bits of information that were right in front of his face. Ethics be damned. And that's not really out of character for him, either. He's never had a problem perverting the justice system to get his perp.
As for Ross' comments to Eames in the squad coffee shop, ICK. Totally squicky to hear that coming from him. It was also a blatant, and borderline clumsy foil for Eames' feelings of exclusion from Goren's world. Adding that with the scene where Goren is looking longingly at Eames' chair just before she comes back to the bullpen with Peter and recounts their adventure, referring to Peter by name ... the whole Peter thing is starting to reek of fanfic melodrama for a Goren/Eames "ship." Ooooh, boo hoo, Bobby! You're losing her! Better take her out for some veal parmesan and a heart-felt chat about your mom. Afterward, she can stroke your hair as you shed 20 years of repressed tears and sorrow into her soft, generous bosom ....
No offense to the B/A shippers or fanfic peeps. I don't have a problem with fanfic, I just don't want the show to become one. Some things are better left to the imagination.
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Apr 5, 2007 8:20:31 GMT -5
I had a chance to view the episode and I found it to be really entertaining topic-wise.
Any sub-culture is always interesting to observe, because it claims its difference from the main culture (if such a thing exists) but when you look closely it is confronted with the same issues.
Languages (signed or spoken) are always an emotional subject; it’s more than a way of expression. You show to the outside world your inner world. It’s how you think; who you are and where you come from; and therefore imposing anything on it is a sure way to ignite passions.
I should know, I live in a French-speaking province in a predominantly English-speaking country that on paper should be bilingual "ad mare usque ad mare". I fully understood the separatists view, yet there were a little too right-wing for my own taste. But it fitted the story, how do you justify murder when you're a moderate separatist?
I agree that the entire deaf community wasn't represented but when it serves the plot; I don't mind when the writers take a side. It's not always mandatory for me to see both sides of the coin.
The problem was that this way of thinking, put in the forefront of the episode, served only as a diversion to make a statement about the deaf community; the real motive for the murder was more personal; led by fear of losing someone close for a second time. I think the feeling of loss Malea’s boyfriend felt wasn’t dealt with sufficient depth. The intent was the most important link to bind the separatist view shown during the episode and how it affected specifically a person who believes in such a view.
The interaction between Eames and Peter was very well-done. They showed the two different ways of dealing with a certain attraction. Peter didn't mind showing his interest towards Eames, but Eames displayed a more reserved attitude.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 5, 2007 8:34:57 GMT -5
Good grief, both Goren and Eames have plenty of reasons to be tired and depressed--what hasn't happened to them this season?
I'm probably a sick, demented person, but I can find it entertaining to watch an actor skillfully play a depressed person, but, then again, I've willingly sat through Eugene O'Neil plays and love Stephen Sondheim musicals. (g)
And I think Goren was hiding how much sign language he knew.
Patcat
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Post by ragincajun on Apr 5, 2007 10:16:57 GMT -5
I was channel surfing last night and caught part of CSI:NY which I never watch. But Marlin Matlin, I think that is her name, was signing and they were talking about cochlear implants but the signing was different than Law and Order CI, so the ASL and ESL now explains that, so Thanks for that info.
I know the alphabet we all learned in grade school so we could talk in class and not get into trouble. Also Olivia on SVU commented she could sign the Maranda Rights, so maybe Goren learned for the Job.
I think Goren was a little jealous, not due to romantic feelings, but because it seemed like he was a third wheel. When they were walking down the street, Goren was walking behind he looked like he was trying to get as close as he could to be included. And the looking at her desk, Peter was interfering with there partnership, I think is how he felt, Eames is his rock.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 5, 2007 11:18:43 GMT -5
Dang, Trisha--you been reading my fanfic? (G) (Confession time--I write fanfic, and I ship in it. I am sorry--Forgive me, for I have sinned.)
While I agree entirely with Peter's stance on the rights of the deaf suspects (particularly regarding the lawyer/client conversations), I found him rather wishy/washy about his conflicts between being a cop and his loyalty to the deaf community. But I don't know if it was something about the actor's performance or the writing of the scenes. The writing of the character struck me as fairly strong and convincing, but the performance didn't make the character appear strong.
And I didn't sense any jealousy on Goren's part--more of an annoyance because he couldn't get the information he wanted right away.
I wasn't upset with Ross' concern for Eames. I don't think it's directed at Goren as a bad partner for her. He is not old enough to play the fatherly card with her, whereas Deakins was. I wonder if Ross is feeling guilty about his treatment of Goren and Eames, especially Eames. After all, he gave them both a rough time when he arrived, and now she's been kidnapped, his mother is dying and a roque cop nearly killed him, and both detectives are still slogging through.
Does anyone know if Mr. D'Onofrio suffers from allergies?
Patcat
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Post by trisha on Apr 5, 2007 13:19:14 GMT -5
Lol, Pacat! No, I haven't read your fanfic's, and it's only a sin if you rate it "R" or "Adult" and it's really PG13. So disappointing. Please clearly label your p0rn and non-p0rn fics, people.
Seriously, reread that completely accurate statement and tell me that this show is not turning into a soap.
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Post by hannah on Apr 5, 2007 14:06:11 GMT -5
The "icky" moment in the coffee room with Eames and Ross might have something to do with the confession she made about her husband passing away. Maybe he felt bad (even though it was a while back) and he wanted to play matchmaker...?
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Post by signer on Apr 5, 2007 14:36:37 GMT -5
This episode hit the mark. As an interpreter I was very interested as to how the script would portray the division in the deaf community over these touchy issues. The writers did their research. It was spot on, in my experience. This was an extremely well constructed episode. As for Goren signing, most people pick up signs rather quickly, when exposed to it. It takes little effort to learn to "speak" the real trick is in reading signs.
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