spits
Detective
Posts: 224
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Post by spits on Apr 5, 2007 16:01:50 GMT -5
Just an okay episode for me here. I enjoyed the premise of the episode, but as it has already been pointed out: Seriously, reread that completely accurate statement and tell me that this show is not turning into a soap. I think that's one of the things that has been bothering me about this season. When I first started watching, I didn't mind it - however, as I went back and caught the old repeats, I started to appreciate the subtle drama and the focus on the actual crime more. Don't get me wrong, I still like the show overall, but I'm not as optimistic as I was beforehand about the "new direction" it decided to take this season. A little soap is okay, but I think it's become too much... However, to end on a positive note: I must say that I thought the actors did an excellent job!
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 5, 2007 16:52:04 GMT -5
Well, Goren looking worriedly for a few seconds at Eames' empty chair isn't half as soapy as throwing a wad of paper at it, practically in tears. And that was Season 3, the supposed "no soap era." All that meant to me is that Goren didn't like Eames & Peter working together on the crime. When they returned, they mentioned visiting Larry together. Goren's expression of obvious annoyance is priceless. I really liked Peter. I worked in the Community Affairs Office of my local police precinct in Queens while in college. The Detective in charge, such a sweet guy. Could not imagine him ever cuffing someone or pulling his weapon. Peter is definitely like him. A social worker with a badge. I felt sorry for Peter, talking with Eames about the "cocoon" the deaf are in & of others being shut out. I'm sure he oftentimes felt shut out of his parents world, as much as he tried to join in by signing. It was also poignant when Peter was describing living with his parents, home being their own "little Eden." Eames & Peter, an unlikely couple. But who know?
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Post by ragincajun on Apr 5, 2007 17:06:54 GMT -5
I think that's one of the things that has been bothering me about this season. When I first started watching, I didn't mind it - however, as I went back and caught the old repeats, I started to appreciate the subtle drama and the focus on the actual crime more. Don't get me wrong, I still like the show overall, but I'm not as optimistic as I was beforehand about the "new direction" it decided to take this season. A little soap is okay, but I think it's become too much... However, to end on a positive note: I must say that I thought the actors did an excellent job! I agree, I think the problem is with splitting the episodes. If soap could have lasted half a season and played out it would have been ok, but we only get a half of Season of G/E, and since it was played into the background it has taken up all of the G/E episodes. Now we are faced with possible cancelation and maybe ending with our Fav detective on a bad note. Maybe if they would have played it out more quickly with mother passing sooner. Or this season they could have had a few cross over with both teams. Too late now, lets just hope we get a season 7.
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Apr 5, 2007 19:04:31 GMT -5
DonnaJo: "Eames & Peter, an unlikely couple. But who know?"
Eames would/will eventually eat Peter alive. Really, he's to sweet for her to maintain a long lasting relationship. She may be wanting what she sees as a more traditional lifestyle, but deep down I don't think it would make her happy. She has cop DNA.
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Post by cosgt05 on Apr 5, 2007 19:38:12 GMT -5
I have just watched this eppy for the third time and something felt very off with Goren and Eames.
The skating rink scene had another meaning from my view. Eames's partnership with Goren was her safe cocoon and her partner has basically shut her out. Eames seemed to be in deep thought after Peter gave the explanation of the deaf community. By the way, I HATED that Peter called Eames by her first name. I'm still waiting on Goren to acknowledge she has a first name. I do think Goren was jealous when Eames and Peter came into the squad room together because deep down he knows he is responsible for the condition of their partnership. He just doesn't seem to know how to fix it. Goren may be afraid he will lose the one solid thing in his life. Wake up Bobby!!!
Ross telling Eames Peter seems like a nice guy just made me roll my eyes unintentionally. Are you kidding? What is he now, Capt. Romance. Pleassssse!
I liked the topic but can't decide if I liked the eppy. If there is arc to all of the personal stuff, let it get here quickly. I don't care for this new Goren much. Where's my in your face guy?
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Post by NicoleMarie on Apr 5, 2007 20:17:28 GMT -5
Techguy, It seems I botched my explanation of ESL and Gorens' seemingly too quick ability to pick it up. So I asked my friend to tell me again, and I'm just going to post her email response directly so that I don't botch it up again. "Learning sign language is not the same as learning another language. There are only so many signs available to be learned, where the English language seems to have an infinite amount of words. In the English language, there is 50 ways to say "great". Awesome, fantastic, swell, cool, etc., basically all mean the same thing. in sign language, there is basically only one way. ASL or even ESL is a very simplistic language. Goren already had a grasp of sign language. He knew basic words and commonly used verbs. He was able to read some of the signings at the ice rink but not all. Gorens' signing in the final Criminal Intent scene was simplistic, as his actual motions were awkward, and his hands much higher than should have been. The deaf characters had to tilt their chins up high to read his signing, indicating Goren is still amateur. Goren also became exasperated when he said "You knocked his voice box out". Goren could not sign this and looked to the interpreter to say it for him. Goren would look quite advanced to anyone who did not know any sign language but to a person who knows sign and is familiar with it's uses and expressions would know otherwise. They will know he is an amateur, as they will catch the various mistakes that gives him away as an amateur. To my eyes, he did well for an amateur in spite of this. NM, to understand why Goren would still need an interpreter and how he could "take over" the final scenes momentarily, you need to think of your own knowledge of Italian. You can carry a conversation and understand spoken Italian but, when it comes to finer details, fast talkers, or bigger words, such as words concerning technology, science, history, military, etc., you will need help with translation. In other words, you can only get so far on your own because you are not entirely fluent in Italian. Goren could only get so far on his own because he is not entirely fluent in sign language. It's not difficult for a person to learn to sign, the difficulty comes from learning to READ sign. The speed of signing is usually the biggest setback in attaining fluency in sign language. With practice, that is no longer an issue. Goren signed slowly, and most people signed slowly to him, which was to his benefit. Even the fully fluent interpreter became lost when Malia "freaked out" and began signing very quickly. That's not uncommon. Even deaf people get confused by very rapid signers. You should point out the differences in ASL and ESL for those who are curious. Seeing will help people understand the differences. ASL: 1) She need money she = She needs money. 2) She my mother she = She is my mother 3) I Happy I = I am happy. 4) He his teacher he = He is his teacher. ESL does not use such a syntax as ASL, they simply use "She needs money", etc." I hope this helps!
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Post by Techguy on Apr 5, 2007 20:55:11 GMT -5
NicoleMarie, thanks to you and your friend too for your added input and insights about signing. Yours and Observer's points only serve to underscore why I feel Goren's increased abilities to sign seriously strained the credibility of "Silencer" for me. Many viewers, myself included, are not aware of the differences between ASL and ESL or how difficult it would be to acquire a reading and speaking vocabulary in either language. It's also still unclear to me how and under what circumstances Goren learned sign language, and this gap in knowledge is an added factor in my inability to accept or understand how it would have been possible--and realistic--for Goren to do what he did in the interrogation room. "Silencer" is an example of an episode that would have benefited from some more establishing Goren backstory. It would also have benefited if it was extended like last week's "Players" to fill in the gaps I described to make what's happening more understandable and believable.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Apr 5, 2007 23:32:46 GMT -5
Oh, I see. You have an issue with how Goren learned more sign language seemingly so quickly rather than if it is actually possible for him to be able to. Learning to sign isn't so difficult but it does seem a bit odd that how he learned to sign has never been addressed. I guess we can chalk it to Gorens' military experience, where he seems to have learned German, Korean and other languages. They were never clear on how he learned Russian (Maledictus, season 1), so I assumed the military. Maybe that's how he learned sign language? ... To add more of my thoughts on the episode: First, Peter. I loved Peter. He wasn't abrasive, he didn't try to take over, he wasn't rude or disrespectful like *cough*Ross*cough* can be. I think Peter is not used to sticky situations, like the one Goren placed him in at the ice rink. It seems Peter is more used to translating than actually getting involved. And Peter seemed much, much more aggravated with the pushy ADA than with Goren. I think Peter bristled when he threw Gorens' statement "Can't expect privacy" back in Gorens' face seconds later and then he started talking only to Eames, not to Goren about his deaf parents. Peter later stated Goren was right to be able to ask for translation of the conversation at the ice rink. I think Peter initially bristled at Goren, solely due to the ice rink incident, but I don't see any animosity from him towards Goren, nor vice versa. Maybe because Goren was kind of pleading with Peter, saying please, and trying to convince him. I don't think Goren was being rude or demanding with him. I think Peter's bristling was a reaction of the moment due to his not being used to being in sticky situations. I was a bit confused why Peter turned to Goren and said "It's illegal for me to tell you that", when the ADA was demanding Peter translate the privileged conversation. Goren wasn't demanding Peter translate; the ADA was. Goren seemed to be telling her "They're just showing off, so what they say doesn't matter what they're saying right now", but Peter seemed to think he joined the ADA in demanding a translation. That ADA should know she can't be privy to that kind of conversation, anyway. That's like Law 101, isn't it? I don't think Goren was jealous of Peter or annoyed with him. Goren seemed to be off in his own little world. I think he wanted in on Eames' and Peters' conversation but decided not to try to include himself. While he was sitting at the desk, he looked like he had something to say but instead bit his tongue. When does Goren ever bite his tongue? I don't think Goren has shut Eames out, I think it's the reverse. She is icier and icier to him with each passing episode. I'm curious where this will lead to. It seems as a build up to something, and I'd like to know what. About Gorens' voice - He sounded to me like he had a cold. He had that same cracky sounding voice that he had in "A Murderer Among Us" in a scene. Ross does seem to be approving for Eames or Peter to get together. But I didn't see her being too eager. Her mind seemed somewhere else. When Peter talked to her at the rink, her mind also seemed to be somewhere else. I don't recall her ever acting this way before. Ross does seem much kinder to Eames than to Goren. When Ross sent them on to an interview from his office, he gave that condescending, raised eyebrow "Well, go already" to Goren, even though Eames was standing right beside Goren. When Goren was leaving the office, he smirked.
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Post by LOCIfan on Apr 6, 2007 0:08:24 GMT -5
I really wanted to like this episode, so taped it and watched it tonight, but found it mostly dull. That's something CI rarely is. Even when it's not to my liking, I am usually engaged. But not here.
Too bad Goren spent so much time learning sign language, and so little time engaging in the characters and the case.
Usually I like episodes where CI delves into a subculture. It's something they've done well. I'm thinking of the epi "Art" from the first season, and the opera one from last season, "Drama Giocoso". Probably more, but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. But it didn't work for me here. Goren is just disappearing into the woodwork in these recent cases, and it's not interesting. The sign language liaison was more interesting than Goren. The failure to deal with the dean's murder was only one of a series of plot and motivation holes, but I didn't care enough about the characters or the outcome to even raise them here for discussion.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 6, 2007 8:29:56 GMT -5
I agree, Nicole, that Eames is hard as ice this season. Not just with Goren, but everyone. Even dealing with this Peter, who obviously liked her, she's all business. When he was so openly thrilled to see her at the demonstration, she could have at least given him a little smile. I would say it was because Goren was there, but I found her just as impersonal in their scenes alone together. Is Peter (or anyone) willing to chip away at that 'berg? Waiting for the "different colors" of Eames we are supposed to see this season. All I'm seeing is black. (Exception being the split second she cooed over the deaf baby).
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Post by Patcat on Apr 6, 2007 9:20:54 GMT -5
I also found the ADA very annoying. Why was she even on this case when she was far too personally involved? Perhaps Peter turned on Goren because Goren was an easier target?
Peter was sweet; he's also wishy/washy, and I agree that Eames would probably get tired of him fairly quickly.
H-m-m. I didn't notice any particular coldness on Eames' part towards Goren. Things are shaky between, but I think they are getting better. Considering everything they've been through, I'd be more worried if things weren't shaky between them.
I think Ross is always going to be more comfortable dealing with Eames. He's still trying to accept the idea that Goren is as smart as him; it seems to me that Goren is dealing much better with the idea that there's someone else in the room with brains as big as his. Or perhaps Goren, with everything that's going on in his life, doesn't care.
And I agree that the split schedule has something to do with the sense that we're getting too much soap. All of this spread over 22 episodes would be much easier to deal with than just over 11.
Patcat
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Apr 6, 2007 9:54:26 GMT -5
NicoleMarie,
This part of your friend's email made me remember something that annoyed me in the way Goren used sign language.
In spoken language there is indeed numerous ways to express things and we also have intonations to express the intensity of what we are saying.
Since sign language only have one sign to express "greatness", to take the same example as your friend, deaf people use other means to tell that something is "super great". They can sign faster or slower; but mostly they use facial expressions to pass on the intensity of what they are saying.
In the aria, when Goren took over, he used his hands as a mean to express emphasis, pounding each and every sign with his hands. It was obvious, he was in interrogating mode. Yet, his face didn't quite expressed that, we saw him uses his facial expressions more than that in some interrogation scenes.
From my experience what makes sign language so beautiful to watch is the link between the hands that state the message and the face that state the emotion.
It was a disappointment for me to see that Goren, who usually uses his face (in fact his whole body) to convey emotions didn't do it in a situation that would be the most effective.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 6, 2007 10:02:25 GMT -5
The "Mayor" of the coffee shop, the old white guy in the wheelchair with the obvious Texas twang? Why did the writer's feel the need to "Latino-ize" his name by using Antonio? Why not name him the more appropriate "Billy Bob?"
Am I the only one noticing this trend?
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Post by hannah on Apr 6, 2007 11:36:45 GMT -5
I don't see Eames cold, but I do see a change (along with the rest of the characters). But I'm sort of glad they're being realistic. I mean you don't just get kidnapped and then feel all charming and witty and gay (yes I am that cheesy.)
I agree that Peter is too wishy washy for her, like someone said. I also think he's a bit of a clinger. For Eames anyway, she might have trouble getting rid of him.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Apr 6, 2007 14:29:53 GMT -5
Just to pop in with a quick note: My friend told me the final signing Tommy did to Malia when he was cuffed was "I love you". Just in case anyone wondered. I'll pop back in later for replies!
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