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Post by janetcatbird on Oct 17, 2004 11:03:23 GMT -5
Observer, I read your post alte last night and actually amde the decision to sleep on it so that I could give a clear and coherant answer! Hopefully this will work.
It's so sweet and kind of you to offer that reassurance. I looked back over the post and realized I did come across as petrified, but that wasn't the impression I meant to give. (I'm awful about that, I go really in depth into one aspect of something so when I come back and say "I didn't mean it like that" I sound wishy-washy.)
I think I was trying to explain why I thought rape was so horrible, and why that was one crime that I react so strongly to. Like I said, I've been fortunate and I don't know anybody (personally) who has gone through this, so my awareness is limited to books/movies/tv and a couple of conversations like you've had. However, I've always had very strong feelings of empathy for people, even if the book isn't that well written I still feel what the characters feel, so I think that played a part in it too. But I don't huddle in my room afraid to go out and live. Do I walk down dark alleys with $10 bills hanging out fo my pockets? No. Can I walk to the Caf along a lit sidewalk without panicking? Yes, that's not a problem. At Orientation it can be a bit overwhelming, mainly just cause you're young and dumb and your whole life is changing. But once you get set up it's not nearly as terrifying, people just have a very casual "Hey, you mind walking with me to my car and I'll bring you back here?" (Plus, big beefy football players are glad to walk with their girlfriends' friends, and in extreme instances some would be happy to act as Enforcers!)
I really admire your courage in opening up about your experiences, and I am very happy that you've made a good life for yourself despite everything that happened. I apologize for being misleading, but again, thank you so much for your concern.
Catbird
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Post by BegToDiffer on Oct 22, 2004 10:56:14 GMT -5
Greetings to all, this is my very first reply. I had planned to easy my way in to the discussions, lay low for awhile, until I saw this topic. So, here goes. Patcat-I wasn't sure if you were asking who from the show deserves the death penalty, or who in general, so I am responding to the "who in general". 1. My friend Margaret found a suitcase on her front porch. She brought it in, put it on the table and opened it. It blew up, killing her and her 2 year old son. It also made her second son deaf. Whoever left the suitcase should get the death penalty. 2. My friend Rose found her 84 year old father dead on the floor, after he was robbed in his own home, gagged and tied up. He choked from being gagged. Whoever left him to die should get the death penalty. 3. My friend from high school was killed in alley when a drug buy went bad. Should he have been there, of course not. He's still dead. All drug dealers should get the death penalty. 4. My neighbor's beautiful 13 year old niece was killed by her 14 year old boyfriend. He dumped her body in the woods. Should he get the death penalty, why not?
With so many posters here, there must be someone else out there who knows people who have been murdered. I'm sorry that my first post sounds like I'm a cold-hearted person, but these people were my friends.
To: Observer- if anyone is a survivor, it is you! God Bless. To: Sirenna- People rape, rob, steal and murder. I get so upset when people refer to criminals as animals.
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Post by Sirenna on Oct 22, 2004 13:08:41 GMT -5
To: Sirenna- People rape and murder. I get so upset when people refer to criminals as animals. Agreed! It's an insult to animals. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that animals kill for food or territory. Humans are the only ones who kill solely for the pleasure of it. I can't change the tragedies you suffered but I'm sorry they happened to you. (PS. welcome to board, begtodiffer! )
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Rose
Rookie
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Post by Rose on Oct 23, 2004 4:30:54 GMT -5
Pat, let me first say that I am against the death penalty. I have myriad reasons for this which are pretty much the standard ones you frequently hear.
But contradictory though it may be, I think there is a difference between whether one supports the death penalty, and whether one feels some people deserve the death penalty (I won't go into my reasons here, would take too long and doesn't really answer your question). Despite my opposition to capital punishment I think there are lots of people who "deserve" the death penalty, particularly people who carry out murders or extreme torture for the sadistic fun of it or for money. OTOH not all murderers are sociopaths and I'm torn as to whether pure sociopaths deserve the death penalty because if they are incapable of having morals, as opposed to just casting their morals aside, perhaps they have a brain problem that is not their fault and that's a mitigating factor.
In the case of Goren, technically his argument against the death penalty was not whether it was deserved but whether it was legal under New York death penalty standards. I think he also genuinely believes a person who has a conscience and feels remorse and wants to be stopped shouldn't get the death penalty even if it's legal, but that's speculation on my part.
An even more speculative comment is that I think Goren is anti-death penalty. I've suspected that ever since the D.A. asked him if he felt ok with the perps getting the death penalty in the episode about the young couple who killed two undercover cops. Goren said "now is the wrong time to ask me"...they were on the way to the funeral. If he was pro death penalty and the answer was yes, he was ok with them getting death, now wouldn't have been the wrong time to ask. These two carried out multiple murders; I doubt someone who supports the death penalty could have a problem with that, unless they felt the boy was remorseful, and manipulated by the girl.
But I can't know for a fact how Goren feels on the subject, it's just what I extrapolate from that scene.
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Rose
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Post by Rose on Oct 23, 2004 4:51:57 GMT -5
"What really strikes me as funny/odd is that most of those people opposed to abortion - the killing of unborn children - are for the death penalty - the killing of grown ups."
Here's my theory about that dichotomy.
I think most people who are for the death penalty believe it is justified for the state to kill people if they are cold-blooded murderers. I think most people who are against the death penalty either believe that the state makes too many mistakes and therefore innocent people will be executed, or they believe that there is no excuse for taking a person's life when there are other ways to protect society from them.
I think most people who are against abortion believe that personhood and human rights begin at conception, that there is no qualitative difference between an embryo or fetus and a baby who has been born. I think most people who believe abortion should be legal do not believe the embryo or fetus is a person yet.
One more comment...I have often read that in the US it is more expensive to execute a person than to incarcerate her for life because the appeals process is very expensive, so saving money isn't a good reason for executing people, unless appeals are limited more than they already have been. However, I don't think most people who support the death penalty do so for purely monetary reasons.
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Post by Metella on Oct 24, 2004 9:44:58 GMT -5
Also, our society is now giving more care and concern to rape victims - no longer are they the first one's blamed & I can only think that this new outlook (not universal - but very strong) will help in the recovery that Observer mentioned. I have never worried about rape - except when ACTUALLY walking at 2am along a loney strech of civilization. I say it that way, as when I walk along a lonely stretch of wilderness at 2am I am fully alert and enjoying the beauty around me. People SUK.
Many many moons ago I remember seeing something that listed out the cost of housing a criminal in his 20's for life & execution. Execution was much more costly - just because a pro-bono lawyer may help the criminal out; the overtime and expense of the state is huge. So for the cost argument - CP has to be out.
For the deterence argument - I don't have the "research" on that one; but my instinct is that most of these crimes are driven ..... deterence will have very little affect here. It has more affect in white collar and petty crimes.
I am firmly against the DP for any cases except where there is not only evidence but a full confession - has to be a confession because even the best evidence could have been doctored & contaminated. Has to be evidence because nutcases can confess when they don't do it & hey, we want the real bad guy, not just a scape goat! In the case of the confession and evidence - I would hope the cost of redtape to execution would be smaller.
I am firmly for pro-choice. Mostly I am pro-birth control for the entire planet ...... put some hormones in the water in those 3rd world countries & then let them get the "antidote" if they make the choice to have kids. joking, but barely. We need some zero population growth going on here. Oh, you know, I think that is another whole tangent?
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Post by LOCIfan on Oct 24, 2004 10:58:36 GMT -5
Metella,
I know you said you were joking, but I took offense at your statement about "third world countries" and birth control. My impression is that you directed your comment at third world countries because you believe population control would alleviate hunger. That belief, though widespread, is inaccurate.
"In 1989 Cornell University sociologists Frederick Buttel and Laura Raynolds published a careful study of population growth, food consumption, and other variables in ninety-three third world countries. Their statistical analysis found no evidence that rapid population growth causes hunger. What they did find was that the populations of poorer countries, and those countries where the poorest 20 percent of the population earned a smaller percentage of a nation's total income, had less to eat. In other words, poverty and inequality cause hunger." World Hunger: 12 Myths, 2nd Edition, by Frances Moore Lappé, Joseph Collins and Peter Rosset, with Luis Esparza (fully revised and updated, Grove/Atlantic and Food First Books, Oct. 1998)
Additionally, raising the specter of introducing birth control in the water is actually too close to what has happened in many third world countries to be amusing to me. One example is the injectable contraceptive Depo-Provera. Although considered too hazardous for general use in the United States, it has been widely distributed in third world countries, primarily by Western doctors. Known short-term side effects include menstrual disorders, skin disorders, headaches, weight gain, depression, hair loss, abdominal discomfort, loss of libido, and delayed return to fertility. And while long-term side effects will not be known for some time, preliminary studies suggest that Depo-Provera is probably linked to an increased risk of cervical cancer.
If you were not referring to a supposed link between hunger and population growth, I'm at a loss as to why you would single out third world countries as you did. If it's just sheer population that bothers you, why not suggest birth control go in the water in North America and Western Europe?
Again, I realize you said you were joking, but I was offended by your statement and simply needed to explain why.
Best, LOCIfan
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Post by Techguy on Oct 24, 2004 12:33:23 GMT -5
...our society is now giving more care and concern to rape victims - no longer are they the first one's blamed... Try telling that to the hotel employee who accused LA Lakers star Kobe Bryant of raping her. Now, I make no claim as to Bryant's guilt or innocence--only the two parties involved know what really happened. But for over a year since the employee made her accusations, she was subjected to death threats and endless intrusive scrutiny of her private life after the court made "errors" and revealed her name and mental health history to media outlets.
Finally, the circus ended after the woman became convinced she would not get justice in a criminal trial, she decided to opt for a civil trial where the burden of proof was less. The DA was forced to drop criminal charges since he no longer had the cooperation of the accuser.
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Post by Metella on Oct 24, 2004 13:03:05 GMT -5
Techguy; yes, I think that instance, when the girl was up against the fame & fortune of the sports player ..... but I see that as a terrible instance of our society letting the fame take over. As the prosecutor said - a miscarriage of justice not having the girl be able to take it to a full trial for it to be decided there. Over all, we have "advanced" to a place where the rapist is the one at fault .... I spoke with a girl from India & while rape is crime there, the females are still completely blamed for it in reality. So my illustration was that if one has to fight this battle, they are in a much better position & will have more advocates now than in our recent U.S. past. I would never imply that the victim should have dressed differently, spoken differently etc and I think this is now the majority view point? LOCI fan, you can take offense, but none was handed out to you or anyone. We were talking about abortion, I gave off on a tangent of birth control & you are more offended at that? If you want further discussion after my brief reply to you, we can go to pm and I will be glad to continue to hash away and listen to all you have to say on the subject. I'm not offended at your strong opinion, but arguing for enforced birthcontrol was not my stance nor my point. I'm always a bit shocked when someone takes offense at my posts ..... believe me, if I am out to insult someone, they know it. and to me, my post are voicing my opinions as all are encouraged to do. What I was mainly referring to was self-sufficiency - have children if you can rear them; don't if you can't. Goes for any country, but you can't deny the deplorable conditions that innocent children have to deal with all over the world. Goes back to planning to have your children, goes to fewer circumstances in which a woman would have to make the heartbreaking choice that too many have to make, no matter what the decision. Yes, I know all about increased crop yield etc and the basics on sustainable agriculture. That was not my focus - but I really have focused all I want to on that. Now I have let it become too heavy & too depressing.
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Post by trisha on Oct 24, 2004 13:40:57 GMT -5
Locifan, that was a very passionate post! I agree that population control won't stop hunger or disease, but I agree with Metella in the way that only people who can properly care for children should have them. I know that opens the door for another passionate response about the significance of forced abortion and birth control, but I'm willing to be beaten over the head with it. Right now China and India are leading the world in population growth. They are also becoming more economically stable, but with the social and political structures they have in place, the people who suffer first and worst are the children. That is even the case here in the US, so yes, who are we to talk? It may seem an immoral stand point to some, but I do think that it's better that some people do not procreate. Who gets to say who, when, and for how long? The individual would be best, but we have to take into account the failures of both governments in educating their lower classes and providing alternatives. Just take a look at how bad HIV has been in both countries for the past couple of decades. It's still spreading like wild fire -- children are being born with it, and dying because their family does not have the means to help them, and their government doesn't seem to care. The Chinese have gone to the lengths of hiding the HIV epidemic from their people by sending the bodies away for mass burial in mounds they STILL deny contain the bodies of thousands of people who died from AIDS related complications. Of coarse putting anything in the water is absurd, but I can't help but think that it would help alleviate some of the suffering. I wasn't aware that depo-provera was no longer being used. I was on it several years ago and had none of the symptoms you sighted. It did take longer than 3 months for the last injection to wear off for my sister, though. It took nearly 9 months for her to get knocked up, but part of that could have been timing. I assume that since she got pregnant right away with the next two that there were no fertility issues
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Post by LOCIfan on Oct 24, 2004 16:05:26 GMT -5
trisha, yeah i guess it was an impassioned post. I, too, agree that children should be conceived and raised by people capable of caring for them. It was really just the flippancy of the suggestion that "third world" countries should be on the receiving end of enforced birth control that offended me. Metella, thanks for your response. I feel no need to beat the issue to death either here or in PM. You made a joking statement to which I took offense and so I countered it, that's all. I agree that this is a forum in which we're all encouraged to express our opinions -- which is, I think, what we've both done.
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Post by Major Hathaway on Oct 24, 2004 17:36:50 GMT -5
cut
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Post by Metella on Oct 24, 2004 17:49:43 GMT -5
LOCI Fan: I had a great post sent to you and lost it in cyberspace! Tried to get a mod to help out but it is gone I think. In a nutshell, I think we may disagree on much on this topic yet agree on some things & I am fascinated to see into your opinion further if you will share it with me ..... if you are so inclined, I wish you start a 3rd world thread in the Squad Room as we are straying far off topic here. trisha's further post brought up an area I have done some research in - AIDS in africa, not china & I think it is enthralling in a car wreck kind of way. So - I hope I have caught your interest enough to keep this up on another thread since you are definately so passionate about this topic. So far I have not received the smack down from the mods - - - so we shall see .....
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Post by Metella on Oct 24, 2004 17:55:58 GMT -5
LOCI Fan: I had a great post sent to you and lost it in cyberspace! Tried to get a mod to help out but it is gone I think. In a nutshell, I think we may disagree on much on this topic yet agree on some things & I am fascinated to see into your opinion further if you will share it with me ..... if you are so inclined, I wish you start a 3rd world thread in the Squad Room as we are straying far off topic here. trisha's further post brought up an area I have done some research in - AIDS in africa, not china & I think it is enthralling in a car wreck kind of way. So - I hope I have caught your interest enough to keep this up on another thread since you are definately so passionate about this topic. So far I have not received the smack down from the mods - - - so we shall see .....
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Post by Metella on Oct 24, 2004 17:57:03 GMT -5
LOCI Fan: I had a great post sent to you and lost it in cyberspace! Tried to get a mod to help out but it is gone I think. In a nutshell, I think we may disagree on much on this topic yet agree on some things & I am fascinated to see into your opinion further if you will share it with me ..... if you are so inclined, I wish you start a 3rd world thread in the Squad Room as we are straying far off topic here. trisha's further post brought up an area I have done some research in - AIDS in africa, not china & I think it is enthralling in a car wreck kind of way. So - I hope I have caught your interest enough to keep this up on another thread since you are definately so passionate about this topic. So far I have not received the smack down from the mods - - - so we shall see .....
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