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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 11, 2007 18:43:56 GMT -5
I agree with you Techguy, in that Frank was probably a responsible older brother to little Bobby. I bet Bobby has good memories of Frank from their childhood, that is why he can't quite give up on him. And I believe Frank still gravitates towards the oldest son/brother role when he's around & the spirit moves him. That could also account for his comment on Mom's affairs. Wouldn't the eldest son be the executor of his mother's estate? It might be a combination of motives for Frank, realizing that as the eldest son he should know what's going on, combined with an honest need for some of Mom's inheritance. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us Techguy, about wanting a brother. I always wanted one, too. At least now I get to watch my two sons together. They are very close, and it's a joy for me to watch their relationship.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 12, 2007 5:42:09 GMT -5
I agree with you Techguy, in that Frank was probably a responsible older brother to little Bobby. I bet Bobby has good memories of Frank from their childhood, that is why he can't quite give up on him. And I believe Frank still gravitates towards the oldest son/brother role when he's around & the spirit moves him. That could also account for his comment on Mom's affairs. Wouldn't the eldest son be the executor of his mother's estate? It might be a combination of motives for Frank, realizing that as the eldest son he should know what's going on, combined with an honest need for some of Mom's inheritance. You can designate anyone to be the executor of your estate. Some people have an attorney as the executor so that it keeps the family wrangling to a minimum. Some people designate two executors. One would want the most qualified family member to oversee the estate and I think in Frances' case, Bobby would be the logical choice due to his being her advocate for so long. I think we can all see why Frank would be a lousy choice. Gambling addicts would make unreliable executors. It would be too easy to loot the estate prior to her death or very easy to loot it after her death. Frank was and is a gambling addict. He showed up wearing his lucky suit after visiting Atlantic City so it's a safe bet he still is gambling. The last thing you do is entrust anything of value to an addict. If he truly was concerned about his mother's affairs, he would have visited her long before she was terminal to make sure things were alright. As it was, he showed up at the end of her life. In Brother's Keeper, Frank was told how ill his mother was and he didn't bother to show up so he and Bobby could visit. I think the reason for that was because he had hocked the coat and had $$ to play with. Gamblers have priorities. Family isn't one of them. When the $$ ran out, time to visit ailing mother to see if it could be profitable. Hell, he didn't even wait for Bobby to take him. Frank just popped in to see dear old mom on his own.
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 12, 2007 8:49:37 GMT -5
You are right on all counts, diablodeblanco. ;D
My question about the eldest son being the executor was more rhetorical, meaning most times that is the case. We know that in this case it is obviously Bobby who is & has been handling all of Mom's "affairs." He's the one who helped her qualify for Medicaid, found her that beautiful mental facility, (which in the real world wouldn't house Medicaid recipients), and, well, just handles everything. Frank, however, may be feeling a little hurt & resentful about being out of the loop. He wouldn't see that what we all see, that he is completely irresponsible.
But your excellent post made me wonder about something. Frances has made comments praising Frank to Bobby. Of course we remember the "If your brother were here I wouldn't be going through this. He would take care of me." from Brother's Keeper? As well as "don't underestimate your brother."
Anyway, I wonder if Bobby had some trouble getting his Mom to make him the executor of her will? This eldest son concept is very old fashioned & almost a given with the older European/American generation. We've all heard stories about family members looting their parent's estates. In many cases it's because the executor was the eldest male member, even though that wasn't the logical choice.
Of course Frances really doesn't have anything to leave except personal effects. Like her photo albums & paintings, maybe some good pieces of jewelry. Would even Frank hock his dead Mom's jewelry? I also found it odd that Frances was so stingy with that picture of herself that Bobby wanted. She keeps saying she's dying, she only has a few weeks. So isn't Bobby getting the photos anyway?
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 12, 2007 14:13:50 GMT -5
You are right on all counts, diablodeblanco. ;D My question about the eldest son being the executor was more rhetorical, meaning most times that is the case. We know that in this case it is obviously Bobby who is & has been handling all of Mom's "affairs." He's the one who helped her qualify for Medicaid, found her that beautiful mental facility, (which in the real world wouldn't house Medicaid recipients), and, well, just handles everything. Frank, however, may be feeling a little hurt & resentful about being out of the loop. He wouldn't see that what we all see, that he is completely irresponsible. But your excellent post made me wonder about something. Frances has made comments praising Frank to Bobby. Of course we remember the "If your brother were here I wouldn't be going through this. He would take care of me." from Brother's Keeper? As well as "don't underestimate your brother." Anyway, I wonder if Bobby had some trouble getting his Mom to make him the executor of her will? This eldest son concept is very old fashioned & almost a given with the older European/American generation. We've all heard stories about family members looting their parent's estates. In many cases it's because the executor was the eldest male member, even though that wasn't the logical choice. Of course Frances really doesn't have anything to leave except personal effects. Like her photo albums & paintings, maybe some good pieces of jewelry. Would even Frank hock his dead Mom's jewelry? I also found it odd that Frances was so stingy with that picture of herself that Bobby wanted. She keeps saying she's dying, she only has a few weeks. So isn't Bobby getting the photos anyway? I think Frances begrudgingly gave her picture to Bobby because looking at her photo album gave her some inner pleasure. Flipping through each page took her back in time. I believe Frances has a little narcissistic streak in her. Looking back at an old photos of herself reminds her of a time when she "normal" and desirable. I think you're right about the nice facility and medicaid. It was a pretty spiffy room. Perhaps Bobby was kicking in some $$ so that she would have a nice place to stay and not some depressing dungeon where the staff would be a problem. Gambling addicts (any addicts) will take from relatives. Money, possessions, medication, anything that can be traded or used. It's all about the next fix. As to Frances singing Frank's praises to Bobby, perhaps it was a way to get her jabs in. The ongoing put down. There is something rather abusive about it. If it was something she had done for years I doubt she would stop now. It had become such a part of her inner make-up. Maybe it was because on some level she knew she needed Bobby. That would make for insecurity. Kind of reminds me of an abusive spouse/bf who physically or emotionally beats his partner down because of a fear that the partner will leave. Just because you're in the drivers seat doesn't necessarily mean you're doing the driving. Frances made a career out of throwing Frank in Bobby's face. I think Bobby understood why. Maybe that was why he tolerated it so well and for so long. He understood it's roots.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 12, 2007 16:19:27 GMT -5
I believe early on Frances gave power of attorney to Bobby so that he could handle her financial/medical affairs when she was incapacitated either physically or mentally. She has seemed to be aware of her mental problems all along so having a game play would be the prudent thing to do.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 12, 2007 18:08:00 GMT -5
I wonder if Frances Goren was always the way we see here in Season 7. Perhaps she was more charitable towards Bobby until the break that occurred after the invasion of her life in THE WEE SMALL HOURS?
Patcat
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Aug 12, 2007 21:47:46 GMT -5
I think that she has always been this way. That is why Bobby is so good with her. She loves both her boys but Frank has always been her favorite. Bobby knows that, but she, I think knows who is loyal to her. Frank doesn't show up for her birthday, she and Bobby wait patiently. She makes excuses to Bobby, he wants her to open up his present. One that he got, probably for both of them.
What if Frank had stepped in this last year and suddenly become responsible? I think that it was a missed conflict that could have been exploited. Frank could have slowly sold off her jewelry or other things that he might get for gambling money. A conflict of care for mom......I am just musing.
Maybe it will come up in some way this year with Frank, even though he knows Frances didn't have any real money. I think that more conflict with Bobby and Frank will happen at some point this season. It still keeps mom alive in a way with the story line.
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Post by Cassie on Aug 12, 2007 22:47:23 GMT -5
I think that she has always been this way. That is why Bobby is so good with her. She loves both her boys but Frank has always been her favorite. Bobby knows that, I agree she has always been like that. But I also feel, if Bobby was the absent kid, and Frank was taking care of. She would pine for Bobby. I just think that is the way her mind works, what she dosen't have, she wants
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Post by Patcat on Aug 13, 2007 8:35:30 GMT -5
I more than concede that Frances may have always been the way we see her as she approaches her death. But for the sake of discussion, what if there have been moments where she sees things more as they are and knows that Bobby is the one who's cared for her, who's been the good son. I was a bit puzzled by Bobby's insistence on his mother receiving continued treatment for her cancer, even to the point of pushing for experimental treatment. Now much of this is likely just part of Bobby's makeup, but I wondered if he had happier memories of his mother and hoped that if she lived she might return to that form. We've admittedly seen very little of Bobby's interactions with his mother before this past season, but some of the scenes between mother and son indicated to me that Bobby was dealing with new frustrations with his mother, that some of these difficulties were new developments. Just some thoughts, as I said, I don't even quite believe in them myself (g).
Patcat
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Post by ragincajun on Aug 13, 2007 10:02:13 GMT -5
But it seems as things got worse, and Mom took turn for the worse, Frank wasn't around. In the end it seems Frank was gone. I just wonder if Frank stayed for the Funeral.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 13, 2007 11:55:40 GMT -5
I more than concede that Frances may have always been the way we see her as she approaches her death. But for the sake of discussion, what if there have been moments where she sees things more as they are and knows that Bobby is the one who's cared for her, who's been the good son. I was a bit puzzled by Bobby's insistence on his mother receiving continued treatment for her cancer, even to the point of pushing for experimental treatment. Now much of this is likely just part of Bobby's makeup, but I wondered if he had happier memories of his mother and hoped that if she lived she might return to that form. We've admittedly seen very little of Bobby's interactions with his mother before this past season, but some of the scenes between mother and son indicated to me that Bobby was dealing with new frustrations with his mother, that some of these difficulties were new developments. Just some thoughts, as I said, I don't even quite believe in them myself (g). Patcat I think Bobby's insistence for more medical treatment was because HE needed to know he did everything humanly possible to save his mother. No halfway measures, and certainly no taking the easy out by letting her give up. He felt perhaps that he owed her that. By going the distance, when the end would come, he could look at her with a clear conscience knowing in his heart he did his best by her and hoping that on some level she understood. I don't know about happier memories for him. His mother had her "car accident" when he was just 4 so not many memories there. According to Frank she was never the same after that weekend. I am assuming that by "never the same" Frank meant her mental problems began to emerge. At age 7 Bobby admitted he saw her behavior "not like the other mommies". I think from that time until her death, Frances was unbalanced. Maybe she had times when she seemed alright. I don't believe they were long lived. I think Bobby, early on, discovered through trial and error how to handle his mother (The Goren Show) as she/they struggled with her disease. Can you imagine that chaotic household?
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Post by sarahlee on Aug 13, 2007 17:10:48 GMT -5
...As to Frances singing Frank's praises to Bobby, perhaps it was a way to get her jabs in. The ongoing put down. There is something rather abusive about it. If it was something she had done for years I doubt she would stop now. It had become such a part of her inner make-up... You are so right on, DB...I am presently aquainted with a woman with Alzheimer's, who has a similar situation with her daughers. Even now, when she often cannot remember her care-giver daughter's name, she still praises the ne'er do well, and abuses the care-giver. And my respect to you guys...you are much more forgiving of Frank than I will ever be...
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Post by Techguy on Aug 13, 2007 18:42:11 GMT -5
An important consideration for me is when did Bobby Goren go into the Army and how long he was overseas. We know he has been to Germany and Korea, but for how long was he outside the US overseas? If his mother began to show signs of mental illness when he was 7, it's possible she was still able to function and take care of him--unless Frank or some other adult in the family continued to care for Bobby when Mom had to be institutionalized.
And when exactly did Frances go to Carmel Ridge? If Bobby was in the Army, and Frank by that time had disappeared into his gambling and drug/alchohol addictions, Frances most likely wasn't so far gone requiring one of her sons to be nearby to tend to her affairs. I assume Bobby left the Army partly because he gave up on it as a career, and partly because his mother's mental and/or physical condition had deteriorated so much that she required more attention.
It's for these reasons that I think Frances only began to grow progressively worse mentally during the time of her institutionalization. The stress of the incident described in "In the Wee Small Hours" when she was confronted and harassed by the ex-cop sent by the judge might have been instrumental in making her already delicate condition even worse, which was further exacerbated by the onset of terminal cancer.
Yet even in "Endgame" Frances had moments of clarity, especially when going through her photo scrapbooks. It seems that extreme stress brought the worst of her mental symptoms to the surface, so it's possible that in periods of relative calm she realized it was Bobby who had been taking care of her. It's also not too difficult to imagine how and why she placed the absent Frank on a pedestal, when the line between reality and imagination got clouded, due to deterioration of her mental faculties and/or medication. Isn't it a fairly common trait of human nature to have fonder--and unrealistic--wishes and memories of people and things we do not or cannot have while we take our more loyal family and friends for granted?
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 13, 2007 19:04:30 GMT -5
Based on my calculations, Goren was in the Army for 12 years, from 18 or 19 years of age to 30 or 31 years of age. He joined the NYPD in 1991/1992. I base this on a time line from the Nelda episode (12 years between Academy photo & 2004). That's a long time to be away for weeks or months on end. He could have been stationed in New Jersey for a time, especially initially. But I imagine that with his knowledge of German, Korean culture, Chinese chess, & various other talents that imply travel, he spent a good chunk of his Army stint overseas. I agree with Techguy that Frances may have been doing reasonably well dealing with her schizophrenia during that time period. Who knows, maybe Frank wasn't such a big loser then. He could have been around, staying with his Mom in between poker games & OTB runs. As things with him got worst, he started hitting her up for cash, maybe even the money sent to her by Bobby from his meager Army pay? Eventually, Bobby felt the need to return to Brooklyn to help deal with his Mom. Maybe her letters to him became more disjointed, and he realized that she needed professional help.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 13, 2007 22:18:18 GMT -5
Was it Ms. Sengtupa or Mr. Balcer who said that Bobby left the Army because he was tired of the travel?
Techguy, as our resident expert on the military (g), how long does one have to be in the service to get a pension? And can one get that while working another job?
Patcat
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