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Post by Patcat on Sept 11, 2007 13:16:11 GMT -5
Will air on the Bravo Network on September 16 at 7 and 11 pm (EST) The 10th Episode of Season One. First aired December 9, 2001. Written by David Black and Rene Balcer Directed by John David Coles Synopsis: Eames and Goren investigate the death of a reclusive billionaire in his "safe" room. The investigation reveals the flaws in the man's business and family. Guest Actors: Lothaire Bluteau (Rick Zainer); Leila Robins (Kit Sternman); Tom Aldredge (Sternman's Lawyer); David Aaron Blake (Edward Sternman) Quotes: Goren: "The crime scene is sending mixed messages." Eames: "If I were in this family, I'd probably drink too." Zainer: "I didn't do anything." Goren: "And that, my friend, is manslaughter." Ripped from the Headlines: The events of this episode were inspired by the death of billionaire Edmond Safra in Monaco. Safra and a servant died of smoke inhalation after a fire broke out in the billionaire’s penthouse. Safra’s American nurse, Ted Maher, was convicted of arson and of causing his employer’s death, but there are many questions about the case. Maher contended intruders attacked him and set the blaze. Some reports faulted the Monaco police for hindering the efforts of fire and rescue personnel. Details on the case are available at the CourtTV website at www.courttv.com/trials/monaco/index.htmlAnother episode that surprisingly has no discussion thread. While little is revealed regarding Goren or Eames' personal life, this story does show them at their professional best. This is a solid procedural that offers excellent acting, and a criminal with unusual but believable motivation. Lothaire Bluteau's superb performance as Rick Zainer anchors this show; in the hands of a lesser actor, Zainer's actions might have been unbelievable. Bluteau's performance makes Zainer a compelling and complex figure. If Sternman had written the letter to help get Zainer's children into St. Stephen's, would he still be alive? Although they both plead guilty, do Edward Sternman and Rick Zainer believe they are guilty? Is Zainer the most obsessively driven criminal in the LOCI world? Did Zainer intend to kill the maid? Does she get lost in the shuffle of this story? Does Deakins seem awfully familiar with the workings of AA? We do meet one of Goren's old girlfriends, Irene. Any comments about her and him? This episode offers some excellent examples of Goren and Eames working together. I was especially struck by how Eames takes the lead in the interrogations while Goren waits in the shadows to strike at the best moment. Patcat
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Post by musicwench on Sept 11, 2007 19:20:10 GMT -5
Most excellent episode! I'd say close to perfect as they come - even without the little insights into Goren or Eames' personal life.
If Sternman had written the letter to help get Zainer's children into St. Stephen's, would he still be alive?
Perhaps. Something about Zainer made me think he was resentful enough of his employers that later on down the line something else might have set him off. Sternman wasn't the easiet person to work for and with Zainer's huge chip on his shoulder, you never know.
Although they both plead guilty, do Edward Sternman and Rick Zainer believe they are guilty?
I don't think either of them have taken responsibility in their mind for their actions. Maybe Edward does to some extent but I doubt Zainer did at all.
Is Zainer the most obsessively driven criminal in the LOCI world?
I'd say he ranks up there among the most obsessively driven but having just watched Poison on the Bravo Sunday night LOCI I'd say Trudy Palmeranski would get that title before Zainer. And of course for Queen of obsessive that makes Trudy look like an angel would be Nicole Wallace in A Person of Interest where instead of moving on and being happy in her new life, she risks it all to take down Goren. Now that's obsessive.
Did Zainer intend to kill the maid? Does she get lost in the shuffle of this story?
I think the maid did get lost in the shuffle. I don't believe he intended to include her in his little vendetta but he probably didn't feel guilty about it either.
Does Deakins seem awfully familiar with the workings of AA?
Perhaps. If I had more background information on Deakins I could make a call on whether or not he may have had a problem with alcohol or perhaps it was a family member.
We do meet one of Goren's old girlfriends, Irene. Any comments about her and him?
The only thing I got out of it was that Goren wasn't ready to make a commitment to Irene and she moved on. Probably realized she didn't want someone married to his job, which I believe Goren happens to be.
This episode offers some excellent examples of Goren and Eames working together. I was especially struck by how Eames takes the lead in the interrogations while Goren waits in the shadows to strike at the best moment.
They do that a lot. I love the way Eames engages the person they're interrogating and Goren wanders around looking at things and then asks some off beat questions and comes up with insights.
Great team work.
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meggyd
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 112
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Post by meggyd on Sept 12, 2007 6:24:12 GMT -5
I thought this episode was great too. The intricacies of the family and the plot forced Goren to do some of his most intuitive detecting. Even though Zainer let the old man die, I still felt sorry for him. The episode really delved into the idea of what happens to the "have nots", the workers who see what others have and are desperate to achieve some of it for themselves or their children. The fact that the murder was over his sons' futures made it easier to understand why he did it.
Another son crushed by the indifference or the lack of confidence in him of his father. At least this one was quietly getting on with his life, AA meetings and all.
I didn't like seeing Irene. I'd prefer Goren's girlfriends to stay in the abstract. At least she came across as a capable, smart woman. There was the definite implication that Goren either couldn't commit, or couldn't be around enough for her.
Deakin's did seem familiar with AA, but so does Goren. Deakin's familiarity probably doesn't mean much - I've watched a lot of cop shows and they all seem to have more than their share of alcoholics so he probably would have friends and peers who have alcohol problems. Remember when he knew about removing breast implants before cremation because a buddy married a stripper?
This episode was a great example of how well Goren and Eames work together, and of the more expanded role Eames was playing in season two.
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Post by ragincajun on Sept 12, 2007 10:27:01 GMT -5
If Sternman had written the letter to help get Zainer's children into St. Stephen's, would he still be alive?
Maybe, I think Zainer felt for all he did for Sternman, he was obligated to write the letter and when he didn't it was like the straw that broke the camel's back. If he wrote the letter and his kids got in, then Zainer could have just quit after.
Although they both plead guilty, do Edward Sternman and Rick Zainer believe they are guilty?
Well Edward just wanted to burn the building to get his dad out, not kill anyone, he feels guilty, but didn't want anyone to get hurt. Rick, I don't know, he sheds a little tear at the end, but was it for himself. But he just stood back and did nothing.
Is Zainer the most obsessively driven criminal in the LOCI world?
no, Nicole is still queen.
Did Zainer intend to kill the maid? Does she get lost in the shuffle of this story?
We don't know if he even knew she was there. Yeah she gets lost.
Does Deakins seem awfully familiar with the workings of AA?
Just like Goren in Masquerade. Maybe looking for perps in AA meetings is something they do. Or maybe working with a lot of Fellow AA partners. In Deakins last episode he left Carver some single Malt, so he isn't in AA.
We do meet one of Goren's old girlfriends, Irene. Any comments about her and him?
The thing that always confused me, was they played in a poker game, something the "Boys" usually do. Also that she called him Goren instead of Bobby. So I thought maybe she maybe she maybe tried to start a relationship and he wasn't interested, maybe thats what she meant by you blew your chance.
This episode offers some excellent examples of Goren and Eames working together. I was especially struck by how Eames takes the lead in the interrogations while Goren waits in the shadows to strike at the best moment.
It seems Goren uses his psychology back ground listening, looking for the "in" on people, as Eames questions and when he picks up on something then he pounces. Just love it.
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Post by DonnaJo on Sept 14, 2007 11:33:17 GMT -5
I don't know why I haven't felt motivated to really discuss this episode. It's not one of my favorites, since I usually prefer episodes that are more exciting. This one I found boring, although it did have some clever twists. IDK, I usually prefer the eps that take place in the grittier NYC world.
Zainer was a very unsympathetic character. Totally self-absorbed and concerned with his own situation. Very much like the Dad in Bright Boy, he murders for the sake of his child/children. And like that Dad, Goren has absolutely no sympathy or compassion for him. The crocodile tears at the end left Goren unmoved, safe a feeling of disdain. Great final comment by Goren mentioned by Patcat, "That my friend, is manslaughter."
I liked the intro of Irene, only because it was a tiny glimpse into Goren's personal life. So much to ponder about regarding that little exchange between Bobby & Irene. I agree with Ragin, who calls an ex-boyfriend by their last name? My guess is that she was "one of the boys" who liked to play poker with them. Goren became attracted to her & she to him. They had a few dates, but it didn't work out. Maybe he stood her up more often than not & she got tired of it. That would be the "blowing his chance." I can't believe they had a sexual relationship, there was no looks between them to suggest that. She was all business, and it wasn't just for show. I saw no chemistry between them. He's been much more flirtatious with total strangers.
Very telling (as it was meant to be), the scene at the basketball court. Zainer obviously overreacting with his kids & the "rich" kids playing next to them. Like HELLO, this guy really has a problem when it comes to the rich and/or the more powerful.
Haven't seen this ep in awhile, so I forget. Did Goren look disturbed by that scene? Like he remembered his own Dad criticizing him in sports? Also, do we know that Zainer is the murderer before the aria?
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Sept 14, 2007 15:50:14 GMT -5
Haven't seen this ep in awhile, so I forget. Did Goren look disturbed by that scene? Like he remembered his own Dad criticizing him in sports? Also, do we know that Zainer is the murderer before the aria? Yes, Goren was disturbed, he even bit is lip. I think both the tone and the criticizing bothered him. I believe it did bring back bad memories and he had to bite his lip not to say anything to Zainer about his conduct. I believe that we know Zainer is the murderer before the aria. However, Zainer thinks he's in the clear because "he didn't do anything". That's how Goren/Eames get him because as a nurse he was responsible for his clients care and should have intervened.
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Post by Techguy on Sept 15, 2007 1:22:31 GMT -5
I haven't been very motivated to comment about this episode either, or to watch it again to comment in depth. As DonnaJo mentioned, the villain Zainer wasn't sympathetic at all, his motive totally selfish. This lack of complexity in the character is a flaw that got in the way of my enjoyment of the episode when I did view it. The mention of Goren's ex Irene was an interesting personal detail, and the finale statement about manslaughter a fine coda. But overall there wasn't much particularly noteworthy about this episode.
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Sept 16, 2007 21:17:15 GMT -5
I just watched this episode again tonite. I really didn't remember much from it, I guess because it wasn't a favorite. The nurse, Zainer was creepy to me. I am a nurse and I wouldn't hire him to take care of my parent. He has a lot going on underneath that skin, as Goren saw when he yelled at his kid. Child abuse has been a theme with Goren over the years, because of his own rocky childhood.
The episode was kinda choppy for me. It just didn't flow well at all. Lots of scattered facts and some of it didn't quite fit together all that well. Yea I got it that Zainer didn't tell and he helped prime the murder fires, but if that case was tried today.....I don't think that Zainer would be easily convicted. If he had kept his mouth shut, he would not have gone to jail. They would have taken his license away because of the amounts of over medication he gave, that is for sure. I think that a good lawyer could have shot that down easily. He felt guilty to a point, but mostly I think he saw that he would not get his kids in the school he wanted now. His actions kept that from happening. What a heartless idiot.
Eames was in the forefront and I liked that. I hope they let her do that more this year, and let Goren be the watchful eye from behind. He can then spring for the kill. The big point that solves the case. I just love that.
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Post by ragincajun on Mar 24, 2008 15:20:46 GMT -5
Did anyone watch Dateline, where they interviewed the nurse Ted Maher about the night of the said attempted attack? Seems so fishy, he got stabbed, put the billionair in the safe room with the other nurse, started a small smoke fire, went down got help for himself. Said he started the fire, cause their were not emergency alarms and he figured the smoke alarm would get help there fast. But the police and fire department delayed going upstairs due to the fact that they tought the assasins were still up their. Then 8 yrs later, now Maher is saying he was kidnapped two days before the attack and shown a picture of his kids, and if he didn't leave a window open, they would kill his kids. When he got to work the shutter was already open, so he didn't do anything. They asked him why didn't you tell the secruity guards, he said because he was scared for his family, he is now fighting to clear his name, he said they made him sign the confession and plead guilty in court or they wouldn't let his wife go back to America to be with their kids.
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noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
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Post by noc on Mar 24, 2008 20:38:08 GMT -5
Yes, I watched Dateline last night (sunday). Maher came off as a sociopath (IMO) with no redeeming qualities. Thought Zainer really captured that "I'm the victim" quality very well after seeing this interview.
There were a lot of discrepencies - as ragincagin pointed out.
1. The kidnapping/window open issue was very well addressed by the interviewer. If Maher knew that the window was open, why would he need to be lifting barbells at 4:30 am to stay awake? Wouldn't he be afraid and that would keep him awake (since his kidnappers wouldn't know if it was he or someone else who had left the window open)? It didn't make sense that a former Green Beret would just "leave a window open" and sit at his desk waiting. It's logical that he would be killed as part of the attack. 2. He said the police made him sign a confession in French (which he didn't know) in order to let his wife return to the US. She divorced him in 2006, which doesn't mean that she believes or doesn't believe him. 3. He got help for himself, and then it took 3 hours for the police and fire dept to go upstairs. You would think they would be able to access the cameras to see that no one was there, but I may have missed that. I understand why the police took so long, but it didn't make sense why Safra's security detail wasn't up there. Dateline said that was never explained, if I remember correctly.
The part that I found the most disturbing was that the other nurse had marks around her neck. They said it might have been from assisting her charge (Safra) into the bathroom/panic room. But, it could have been from him choking her if she tried to open the door.
I've also found it interesting that- years later- it is now common knowledge that the Safras had co-operated with the Feds on the Russian mob money-laundering in the US. It was assumed that he was paranoid and that the sale of Republic for about 40% lower than market value was a mistake. Safra actually seemed to have good reason to fear for his life. It kind of proves the point that $3 billion doesn't equate to happiness.
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meggyd
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 112
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Post by meggyd on Mar 27, 2008 1:55:37 GMT -5
After watching this episode again, I wanted to add a few more comments. I actually remember watching it the first time, thinking in the first fifteen minutes that I was really disappointed, because it was going to be another 'disfunctional rich family' storyline where a resentful member was driven to kill the patriarch - the staple plot of many a crime drama. I was surprised and pleased as the story took a right turn and became more than that.
I thought Zainer's sense of entitlement came across very well, the resentment that built up over time to such hatred of his bosses. The sad thing is, if he'd played his cards right, he could have got the wife to pay his kids school fees or get letters of recommendation if that was what it was really about, once they'd embarked on their affair, but by then it was too late and he was fixated on getting his revenge not on providing for his kids.
I still hated seeing Irene. I didn't get the idea they'd been in a relationship, though. As others have pointed out, she calls him by his last name. Perhaps there was interest, but he never acted on it in time, and now it's too late. She seemed dismissive, almost making a joke out of it, he seemed to take her remarks more seriously than she did.
I didn't think Goren overly identified himself with the kids being yelled at by their father for not standing up to the rich kids. This was, after all, a "pre-angst" episode. I just thought that he picked up on the obvious 'tell' that this guy had a problem with those he saw as priveleged, and was putting it together with the opportunity to commit the crime. Sometimes you can see the wheels turning in Goren's mind as he puts things together.
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Post by DonnaJo on Mar 27, 2008 8:27:33 GMT -5
"I didn't think Goren overly identified himself with the kids being yelled at by their father for not standing up to the rich kids. This was, after all, a "pre-angst" episode. I just thought that he picked up on the obvious 'tell' that this guy had a problem with those he saw as priveleged, and was putting it together with the opportunity to commit the crime. Sometimes you can see the wheels turning in Goren's mind as he puts things together."
I had to chuckle when I read this, meggyd. ;D
We (mostly me) do tend to read too much into things. Yes, I'm sure D'Onofrio was simply displaying Goren's ability to read a person's psychological quirks, not reliving his own terrible childhood, LOL.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Mar 29, 2008 0:00:47 GMT -5
I believe Vincent brought this story to the writers himself. He was facinated by the whole panic room thing. He spoke of this one of the times he was on The View.
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Post by idget on Feb 5, 2011 1:32:05 GMT -5
OK, Since Patcat is not feeling well (feel better soon!) and we have some new members who might find this discussion interesting (some disagreement, which is always good) and because I just re-watched this episode I decided to bump it up and see if anyone wants to comment!
I really like this episode the more I watch it. It's not flashy as someone mentions, but there is so much going on especially in the background. If you really pay attention during the beginning it is obvious that the nurse is a master manipulator and playing them all!
If Sternman had written the letter to help get Zainer's children into St. Stephen's, would he still be alive? -I wonder how much pressure his wife put on him to try and get the letter? Zainer is definitely driven and I think a part of him didn't want to disappoint his wife.
Although they both plead guilty, do Edward Sternman and Rick Zainer believe they are guilty?
-Edward does not think he is guilty of murder and I think Zainer believes they deserved what they got. He is only sorry he got caught.
Is Zainer the most obsessively driven criminal in the LOCI world?
-I would say he is in the top 5
Did Zainer intend to kill the maid? Does she get lost in the shuffle of this story?
-She definitely got lost and I don't think anyone feels guilty about her death, the son because he just wanted the fire and he blamed his AA buddy who set the fire. Zainer doesn't feel guilty because he didn't set the fire, infact only the wife looked upset that she was dead but even she didn't know her full name.
Does Deakins seem awfully familiar with the workings of AA?
-if you watch enough TV anyone can know the general idea of it.
We do meet one of Goren's old girlfriends, Irene. Any comments about her and him?
-I liked her. She seemed strong and not willing to take his crap, which is probably why it didn't last. I also thought he didn't look that upset about Carlos.
This episode offers some excellent examples of Goren and Eames working together. I was especially struck by how Eames takes the lead in the interrogations while Goren waits in the shadows to strike at the best moment
-I noticed that too and thought it was great, by this time in their relationship they had really coalesced into a great team.
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dimarec
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 111
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Post by dimarec on Feb 5, 2011 10:55:07 GMT -5
I do like this episode from season one a lot (this one, The Good Doctor and Badge are my favorites from that season).
If Sternman had written the letter to help get Zainer's children into St. Stephen's, would he still be alive?
The letter in the garbage really strikes me. How come Mr. Sternman does not take a look at it?. I would have put an unfinished letter in its desk, instead of a letter in the trash. I guess they needed it for the final aria, but still it brings down the character of Mr. Sternman from a honorable rich man to a man that does not care for its closest employee. I believe he would be still alive if he had wrote the letter, with an excess of prescribed drugs in its bloodstream, and the wife cheating on him with the RN.
Although they both plead guilty, do Edward Sternman and Rick Zainer believe they are guilty? I think Edward finds himself guilty, in a way an executive would do. He failed to make its plan work, it did not come out the way he wanted, so he failed, and the consequence was the death of his father. I don't think he feels that his actions led to his father death, but that it was an unexpected situation. Also he is very sad about losing father. And for Rick Zainer, he feels entitled to take that man's life because he wasn't "fair" with him. I don't think he feels guilty, he must be puzzled that he is being brought to prison just for playing everyone like marrionetes... (When in fact he was taking advantage of the trust people put in his occupation).
Is Zainer the most obsessively driven criminal in the LOCI world? No, but he surely creeps me out. Him and Dr. Kelmer from "The Good Doctor" creep me out... They are so cold blooded and in professions where you put your trust in them. I really don't want to get in the way of any of these two.
Did Zainer intend to kill the maid? Does she get lost in the shuffle of this story?
No, collateral damage.
Does Deakins seem awfully familiar with the workings of AA?
I hope not. I don't know.
We do meet one of Goren's old girlfriends, Irene. Any comments about her and him?
Yes it seems that Goren is surprised that Irene chose Carlos instead of him, like saying that Carlos is a worst choice than he is, and she just replies to him that he blew his chance. I love the look he gives to Irene at the end of their meeting.
This episode offers some excellent examples of Goren and Eames working together. I was especially struck by how Eames takes the lead in the interrogations while Goren waits in the shadows to strike at the best moment.
I do like the episodes where Eames brings a lot of the work and thought that breaks the case, like in this one.
I find that this episode loose end is Mrs. Sternman, she is the one that really benefits from Mr. Sternman death and the family break up. She is no angel at all.
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