noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
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Post by noc on Dec 16, 2007 22:37:01 GMT -5
I've only seen the edited version so I really appreciate this site. It makes more sense now.
I'm with Cassie, Madgers, et al who feel that Ross knew what was going on. He told Eames how to get Donny without a trail back to Major Case. I may be wrong, but I think it's a common government practice to protect one's boss by limiting the trail and the direct discussion. I was also surprised by the lack of a union rep, but not surprised by Ross's reaction to the comment about his file jacket (he already knew about any disciplinary action)
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 17, 2007 9:40:38 GMT -5
This theory that Ross knew....then why did Eames hide from Ross that she was communicating with Goren via his cell phone? When Ross asked if Eames knew where Goren went on leave, she said "some place restful." And when she tells Ross in the elevator about Tate's & that Goren was up there undercover, he was angry & surprised.
I'm with Patcat. I'm sure Ross figured that Goren would check with a lawyer about getting Donny out. Or something like that, legal & above board.
IMO, when Ross cut Eames off with "Be careful what you say here" it was to stop her from further implicating Goren in something illegal & unauthorized. That's why he didn't want the Chief to find out, he knew Goren was going to be in deep trouble with the NYPD brass. He also didn't want to have to testify that he heard Eames say that Goren thought Ross' decision were wrong & that he went against his CO. I saw it that he was protecting Goren's job.
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nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Dec 17, 2007 10:40:08 GMT -5
Just because Ross had an idea that Goren would do something doesn't mean that Eames knew that Ross had that idea about Goren.
Let's face it Ross hasn't been all that supportive of Goren in the past and Eames knows that. Ross hadn't given any indication that he was behind Goren on this so it makes sense to me that Eames would keep it from Ross what they were doing. I'm sure he was angry and surprised that Goren took it as far as he did but that also doesn't mean that didn't know. But I also think he was trying to protect Goren's job. That's why Ross is beginning to grow on me.
nosee
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Post by Cassie on Dec 17, 2007 11:35:52 GMT -5
IMO, when Ross cut Eames off with "Be careful what you say here" it was to stop her from further implicating Goren in something illegal & unauthorized. That's why he didn't want the Chief to find out, he knew Goren was going to be in deep trouble with the NYPD brass. He also didn't want to have to testify that he heard Eames say that Goren thought Ross' decision were wrong & that he went against his CO. I saw it that he was protecting Goren's job. Ross could be protecting his own job as well. Remember when Ross gave Goren his weeks sick leave. Why did Ross only give Goren a weeks sick leave to get his mental health issue under control? Could it be because Ross dropped a hint to Goren and said "There is nothing I can do, I am giving you a week, go find out the truth". No boss in his right mind, would say to an employee, "your a nutbag, here take a week off and get your act together" Especially if a family member was sent off to a place were they knew, a person was murdered. Remember, they just got the autopsy report back from Rogers, and she said the young blonde man was tortured and died of dehydration. As for Eames hiding from Ross the phone calls, the less he knew as to what was going on during the operation. The more the Captain would be able to help his people after it. Ross knew.... when he asked Eames how many people knew... and her response was "Besides you and me?" He knew, he knew how to get Goren out of the prison quick and easy. He might have had some experience with that If Ross didn't know, he would have been more angry at Goren during the official investigation
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Post by Cassie on Dec 17, 2007 11:42:09 GMT -5
The cut portion is approximately 45 seconds. I think that time cut could've come from the scene where G/E talk to Lowry's parents. Nothing particularly vital is in that scene imo. Sorry to harp on this, but every time I see the shortened rerun now, I get irritated as the end approaches. I can't help it I agree with you. The arugment between the Goren Brothers is lost. Where Bobby finds the crack pipe and disowns Frank. That is lost..... It ruins the whole episode...... this deleted scene.....It changes the dynamics of what really went down between the two brothers I really feel, they need to go back add that scene and a few other scenes, They need to explain better why the warden and her people behaved that way. She was a sick pup, watching the prisoners as they were in "heaven"
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 17, 2007 14:03:36 GMT -5
IMO, when Ross cut Eames off with "Be careful what you say here" it was to stop her from further implicating Goren in something illegal & unauthorized. That's why he didn't want the Chief to find out, he knew Goren was going to be in deep trouble with the NYPD brass. He also didn't want to have to testify that he heard Eames say that Goren thought Ross' decision were wrong & that he went against his CO. I saw it that he was protecting Goren's job. Another thought is that when Ross told Eames becareful what you say here, perhaps he was warning her that she was about to say something that would be considered insubordinate.
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 17, 2007 15:05:11 GMT -5
Another thought is that when Ross told Eames becareful what you say here, perhaps he was warning her that she was about to say something that would be considered insubordinate. Yes, that's very possible. He didn't want Eames to blurt out something to the effect, "Goren thought you didn't know what you were doing." ...or something even less diplomatic. ;D Also, I think there was a lot of meaning behind that comment Goren made to Frank in the unedited version, saying "You can't contact me anymore." I think it wasn't just finding the crack pipe, as Goren knows that Frank only "talks program." Maybe this is a stretch, but I think Goren believes that somehow Frank is inadvertently responsible for his job suspension. It was Frank's son who Goren tried to save, a son that Frank ignored & who ultimately made bad choices that got him incarcerated. Of course, Goren made the choice to help his nephew. But Frank's attitude after that, like it was no big deal that Donny was back up there, or lost in NYC & on the run from the authorities. It was also no big deal to Frank that Bobby was being tortured in the mental ward, since Donny told his Dad about it & he did nothing. I think it's finally hit Bobby that having Frank in his life is dangerous, maybe even deadly - to his job & to his life.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 17, 2007 22:45:31 GMT -5
I think maybe Goren was so angry with Frank because Frank was willing to hang Donny out to dry so to speak, in order to save the one remaining favor from Bobby for himself. The sacrificing of Frank's own child for his own benefit struck some chord with Bobby perhaps something from his childhood. So I don't think Frank not calling for help when Bobby was trapped in "heaven" was because he was too stoned but because Frank wanted to eliminate Donny from maybe getting some favor or help from Bobby in the future. Bobby made some remark about keepin one last favor for himself when he was tossing Frank around the room. Since that scene was pretty well chopped it makes it difficult to get a clear handle on things.
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 18, 2007 21:05:50 GMT -5
I don't think Frank not calling for help when Bobby was trapped in "heaven" was because he was too stoned but because Frank wanted to eliminate Donny from maybe getting some favor or help from Bobby in the future. Diab, I know Bobby believes this (that Frank was saving a favor from Bobby for himself) but I'm not so sure. Frank looked honestly surprised & then outraged when Bobby said that. According to Frank's comment, Bobby hasn't ever really helped him. Just gave him a coat & a couple of bucks. Well, I doubt that's true. I'm sure over the long years Bobby has bailed Frank out numerous times. Frank (consciously or subconsciously) doesn't recall these times, only what's occurred in the past few months. Maybe his brain has been so fried with drugs that he's lost his long term memory.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 18, 2007 21:48:17 GMT -5
I saw the surprise on Franks's face when Bobby was yelling about the last favor. I believe that Frank was in a state of denial about all that Bobby has done for him over time. If Frank is a typical addict, then he truly believes that he is a victim and his problems are caused by others who won't help him and he will sacrifice any and all. The any and all includes his own son. Remember this is a man who took his dying mother's ring. I think he kept it knowing that at some point he could parlay it into a favor from Bobby.
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Post by outerbankschick on Dec 19, 2007 18:26:53 GMT -5
After viewing the original episode more than once, then seeing the "edited" repeat, I really, really...did I mention REALLY...want to see the Season 7 DVD come out with a special extended version of Untethered with a lot of the other cut scenes added back, as well as the scenes that were there in the original airing.
I have to say it again...this definitely should have been a two-hour episode.
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Dec 19, 2007 19:30:18 GMT -5
Yes, Outerbankschick...should have been a 2 hr. episode. Too much stuff to get in one show.
Goren has always helped his brother, always. However, Frank has never seen it that way. He has always wanted to be saved from himself, and also blame Bobby for his woes. Frank was always mom's favorite.
Ross knows how Goren works and this time was not a surprise either. He gave him time off and I think he figured that Goren would do his normal thing. Did Ross know exactly what that was? No, because only Eames and Goren could do this alone. If Ross was involved then the whole department would be involved. It gives him a chance to disavow any knowledge of their behavior. He didn't know he was going undercover, but I am sure it wasn't a total surprise. Ross also might be angry at Goren, but he knows he is not crazy. He wouldn't be at that hearing for him if he thought that. He might have thrown him under the bus and not have his own career damaged by this crazy cop.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 19, 2007 21:14:40 GMT -5
Not sure if this has been offered up yet. So many pages of discussion on this episode!!
Maybe Ross keeps questioning Goren's mental state so that if Goren does get in trouble for a rogue mission, Goren could get some leniency if the bad behavior was due to a mental issue. It could keep him from getting fired and/or losing is pension. Kind of Ross' backhanded way of protecting Goren. (just a thought)
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 19, 2007 21:25:51 GMT -5
He wouldn't be at that hearing for him if he thought that. He might have thrown him under the bus and not have his own career damaged by this crazy cop. Ross looked rather spanked and subdued at Goren's hearing. Maybe Ross had his own disciplinary hearing prior to Goren's and at that time was told what was going to be Goren's fate along with his own. Maybe the higher-ups told Ross to just sit there in Goren's hearing and keep his mouth shut and be glad all he got was a bad report in his personnel jacket unlike Goren who got suspended and a mandatory psych exam.
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on Dec 19, 2007 22:24:36 GMT -5
The highlight of the episode was Rogers *expression* change from demure to pissed when Eames got in the elevator, absolutly priceless! Method acting, blah blah blah. That moment was the best part of the entire season. And that, CI writting staff, is how personal lives are meant to be played out on L&O. Thank you for that, now please apply the lesson to the other characters personal lives. The rest was, meh. I don't believe Ross knew what Goren was up to. I do think he was warning Eames not to shoot her mouth off and sink her career along with Goren's (b/c let's face in other than in TV land, that was a career ending move). I thought her comment in response was a good save, and I thought it looked as though she appreciated the opportunity to think better of it and save herself there. That is an example of good leadership on Ross' part IMO. He is growing on me. Realistically, even though I was always a huge Goren fan, a detective would most assuredly get fired for a thing like this. A suspension was necessary as a minimum. The C of Ds was definately the only one in the ep with his head on straight. They are going to have to make some reference to knocking Goren back to Det 2nd grade or something for authenticity sake. I don't believe either that Goren was hearing voices of any kind. I think the Times Square shot was just illustritive of his being utterly and completely alone in the biggest city in the world. Trying to find Donny in NYC is futile and if he wanted to be found or have a relationship w/ Goren, it would be easy for him. The fact that he has gone underground says it all. Goren is really alone now, he has no one left. Nor do I think Goren has ever really done much for Frank. Not that I blame him, I woudn't either. And clearly, Frank is incommunicado most of the time, not lending opportunity to do much for him. I remember the judge in TWSH saying Goren "won't lift a hand to help his gambling addict brother." I think the coat and few bucks may be all Goren really has done for Frank. Since I honestly think that is all Frank deserves, I don't fault Goren for it, but I don't Saint him for imagined good works either. I never liked Carver, so I don't miss him, but I do think it would be OK for Deakins to show up and give Goren a pep talk or something. Deakins was the only person who ever really understood Gorens strengths and played them to his (i.e. Deakins' political) advantage. I don't really want to see Donny again. If he were worth his salt, he'd have called 911 about Goren being in Tates, not bothered calling Frank. Donny showed himself to be just as big a loser as Frank. He is apparently more interested now in not going back to jail. He made no real effort to help Goren, left him to die as far as Donny knew. On the upside, I thought Frank's still being in possession of the ring shows that he is not all bad. He had not yet sunk that low as to sell it. I don't think he stole it either. Frank was Mom's oh so obvious favorite, and since Bobby's paternity is in question, it only makes sense she'd give Frank the ring that Frank's father gave to her (and he is also the oldest son, and Mom was either in denial or completely in the dark about the reality of Frank's life). I don't think any of my brothers' paternity is in question, but we all know my oldest brother will get my mother's heirloom diamonds for his wife. He is the oldest and it is his birthright so far as people of my parent's generation (same as Frances Gorens actually) are concerned. Lame, but not suprising. Bobby's comment "She'd never give you the ring" was just denial. Frances made her preference for Frank, as she imagined him, excruciatingly clear. Franks comment about being "the one" just reminds me that he was expected to become some sort of scientist or something. Goren has made reference to being in trouble in highschool some, at least not fitting in. He is bright enough, but not exactly a people person. Were it not for his ability to empathize with people, I'd think he was supposed to have Asbergers or something. I think we are to believe that Frank had it all going for him and blew it, and Bobby's moderate success is something of a suprise. Being a cop, even a great one, isn't exactly the most respected position in the world. I can see Frances and Goren Sr seeing Bobby as just a civil servant mediocrate. He isn't running for Senate or curing cancer, things Frank may have been expected to do except for his "bad breaks." The viewer knows better, but from the Goren parents point of view, Bobby is just an average worker bee kind of guy. Nothing much to bragg about. Nothing like the handsome, charasmatic, uber success they imagined Frank might be. If any PTB from CI are reading, know this: If Goren gives Eames that ring I will never watch any installation of L&O again. I get ill considering that idea.
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