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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 7, 2007 9:38:42 GMT -5
Well, I didn't sleep very well last night, digesting this episode.
Superb acting, of course. An unfulfilled ending, which I despise. No satisfaction of the evil warden & her sadistic henchmen getting arrested. The Chief is "going to look into it." He actually seems to believe the authorities up there, not his best & brightest Major Case Detective. Even after Goren found the cop killer in "Amends." I couldn't believe my ears - suspension pending a departmental hearing & psych evaluation?
I don't understand why Ross & the Chief Of Detectives are so worried about Goren's sanity? He was calm, focused & respectful to both. Ross' inability to understand that Donny would be in grave danger if sent back to Tate was ridiculous. What if it were one of his sons? Huh? Eames understood that he had to do this. Goren was either pretending to be crazy at times or was under the influence of extreme torture, deprivation of food & water, and drugs. What is the problem here?
The crack teeth were great, but to much too soon. Frank's teeth were fine a month or two back when mom died. Now he has extreme decay? Not realistic. And I agree that Frank meant that he was supposed to be the smart son. Didn't Mom think he was a Scientist? I felt sorry for Frank in that moment. Also when Frank accused Bobby of not wanting to be his brother. Frank's a loser & he knows it. As much as he wants to, I don't think Bobby can or will totally write Frank off.
We aren't given enough info to know why the Warden used "heaven" to such an extreme. If the reason was the break the prisoners, then why did they keep Goren in there hours & hours after he was broken & said that he would take his meds?
The motel comment was inserted for the fans to mull over. Shipper vs. Non Shipper. To me, Goren was outraged that his brother would stoop that low & cheapen his relationship with his partner. Also for him to insult Eames after it was she who went out on a limb with Goren & got him to help Frank.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 7, 2007 9:40:47 GMT -5
This episode needed in a huge way to be a 2 hour special. It would have had so much more punch to it and time to more thoroughly explain some things. It's almost like some of the more interesting things just got a glancing blow due to time constraints.
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Post by nwchimom on Dec 7, 2007 9:47:57 GMT -5
DonnaJo, I agree about Frank's teeth...they weren't that bad a few months ago. Maybe we just didn't see his mouth open so much in the prior episodes?
The warden's motive...we saw her just staring at the monitor when Bobby and the first young man were strapped to the table. I'd say she was a sadist and liked watching them suffer, but she didn't seem to be smiling or enjoying it.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 7, 2007 9:49:15 GMT -5
Oh and I loved the way they had Goren stand in Time Squares at the end of the show, it was sad, and you understood his pain looking out into the world for a lost loved one.... I think Donny and Bobby could have become friends if given a real chance That scene was so sad. It hit home the fact that Bobby is alone in a sea of people looking for the one person he can feel a personal connection to. A someone who needs him, much like his mother needed him for all those years. Perhaps that's one of the things he misses most about his mother....his need to be needed.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 7, 2007 9:52:48 GMT -5
DonnaJo, I agree about Frank's teeth...they weren't that bad a few months ago. Maybe we just didn't see his mouth open so much in the prior episodes? The warden's motive...we saw her just staring at the monitor when Bobby and the first young man were strapped to the table. I'd say she was a sadist and liked watching them suffer, but she didn't seem to be smiling or enjoying it. She reminded me of Nurse Ratchett. Cool and calm. Being in a position of power and control could be a turn on for her. Abusing people under her power heightens that particular feeling for her.
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Dec 7, 2007 10:01:49 GMT -5
Can anyone please explain the following two things to me (being from Germany I unfortunately haven't seen this episode yet):
Someone said now he could understand the comment from Smile. What happened to explain it?
What is it about that diamond ring?
Thanks! Claudia
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Post by Cassie on Dec 7, 2007 10:17:48 GMT -5
Perhaps that's one of the things he misses most about his mother....his need to be needed. Yep, and I think its his greatest shortcoming. It makes him co-dependent. he means well, but..... he sometimes takes the easy road. Like, in the early part of the show, when he offers the homeless man $20 for the brick. I'm sure he didn't have the time, but, what he should have done was walk the man to a restaurant and buy him breakfast. Most homeless people will take the cash and buy booze or drugs. Sometimes in dealing with his mom, I feel he pacified her. Goren is a great guy, but I feel the man was created to have real unresolved issues.
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Post by fortythree on Dec 7, 2007 10:53:16 GMT -5
Cassie, is that how you respond to homeless people, by going to breakfast with them? Homelessness doesn't have an easy answer, especially in New York, where in any given day a number of people ask you for money. I know that I don't post here very often, and you do, and I mean no offense to you.
But I saw Goren's primary motive as being to get the brick away from the man so he wouldn't hurt anyone with it.
I agree, Goren has issues. I agree, he probably tries to fix other people's lives too much. I think he does back down a lot with his family - he pacifies Frank! - but he is the baby of the family and it's hard to get away from the patterns we develop growing up. He tried pacifing them, it worked, he keeps doing it?
In terms of the episode overall, I think they could have cut the initial scene in the whatchamacallit/tram kind of thing and Brick Man without losing anything. And then they would have had a few more seconds to spend on one of the many undeveloped and unexplained threads in the show.
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Post by Patcat on Dec 7, 2007 11:00:27 GMT -5
Some kids from troubled families (although "troubled" isn't the way to describe Bobby's family--perhaps disastrous is better) act out and become criminals or addicts. Some try to solve all the problems of the world. Bobby is clearly one of the latter.
I have to go with the Chief of Detectives here (dodging brickbats). Yes, he's treated Bobby shamefully in the past. Yes, Bobby is one of the best detectives in the NYPD. But he violated all sorts of regulations. He put his partner and Captain in the midst of a conspiracy. Yes, he did it for very good reasons, and I suspect Bobby knew and accepted the costs. And I support what he did. But that's because I know Bobby Goren and some of his motives. What if this were a rogue cop doing something else? And Bobby definitely needs a psych exam, if only to deal with his time in "Heaven."
Patcat
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Post by Cassie on Dec 7, 2007 11:15:25 GMT -5
No offense taken Forthythree You brought up a good point that Gorens wanted to take the brick away, so he didn't hurt anyone. However, I still feel Goren with his background would have known the guy would use it for drugs. and yeah, I know alot about the homeless,............ but, maybe I just feeler safer where I live, then Goren does in New York, I would have walked the guy to McDonald's. and yeah....I have been told a few times that I am crazy I just feel that scene showed his co-dependency issues.... trying to help, but hindering a bit along the way ETA: while driving down the highway just now, I have thought more about this. I still feel Det Robert Goren, was wrong in how he handled this situation. He should have used his cell phone, called for back up, and had the homeless man arrested because he was using the "brick" as a possible weapon. It would have been called a "302" and that is where the police/medical profession, have a person picked up, because they are threating to harm someone or themselves. They are then put into a psych hospital for evaluation, where they are feed and put back on meds, and maybe they can be helped more. The guy would have been given a bed for a couple of days in not a week It was a quick fix on Goren's part!
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 7, 2007 11:17:53 GMT -5
At first I believed that the whole brick scene in the tram was unnecessary. However, it ties into how Goren uses what he learns about people to effectively do his job. Yes, "buying" the brick was a clever way to take it away from a potentially violent, mentally ill person. But is also gave Goren the idea to use it to effectively get himself arrested & sent to the mental ward. Good writing there. Outrageous how Frank was told by Donny that Bobby was in danger & Frank did nothing. It's assumed he was too high on crack to care. No wonder Bobby is fed up, he almost died. Now I wonder if Bobby will relent & forgive Frank? What this episode was screaming for was a big "TO BE CONTINUED......." sign under Goren at the end in Times Square.
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nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Dec 7, 2007 11:25:42 GMT -5
The crack teeth were great, but to much too soon. Frank's teeth were fine a month or two back when mom died. Now he has extreme decay? Not realistic. And I agree that Frank meant that he was supposed to be the smart son. Didn't Mom think he was a Scientist? I felt sorry for Frank in that moment. Also when Frank accused Bobby of not wanting to be his brother. Frank's a loser & he knows it. As much as he wants to, I don't think Bobby can or will totally write Frank off. I agree. And don't you think that Eames would have noticed Frank's teeth when she was talking to him in front of 1PP. She told Bobby that Frank looked healthy and she didn't think he was using. Then at the end of the episode, when Bobby confronted Frank his teeth were all rotten??? I guess that is one way to show how much of a loser Frank is. nosee
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Post by Patcat on Dec 7, 2007 11:38:07 GMT -5
One of the frustrating things about this episode is that there were moments of great writing--the brick, for example--and yet so many holes. My take is to give the writers the benefit of the doubt and blame the need to fit everything into the time slot. To give the story credit, the plot did move steadily and logically until Bobby was headed to the prison.
Oh, and I don't recall there's any evidence Donny contacted Frank to tell him Bobby was in the prison. Frank's pretty awful, but I don't think we can blame him for that.
Patcat
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Post by fortythree on Dec 7, 2007 11:39:37 GMT -5
I was surprised that Eames, as senior partner, wasn't put on suspension as well.
By the book, she probably should have gone to Ross immediately. (And then he wouldn't have missed his date with Rogers, whose dress I am still trying to comprehend.) I guess I understand what Eames did because there's the loyalty between partners thing, but what were they thinking? How did G/E think this could come out any other way but with someone having to go rescue him?
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 7, 2007 11:47:41 GMT -5
Oh, and I don't recall there's any evidence Donny contacted Frank to tell him Bobby was in the prison. Frank's pretty awful, but I don't think we can blame him for that. Patcat When Donny called Frank on the telephone after he escaped, he told him that Bobby was upstate in the prison. That's why Frank said to Bobby, "Why did you have to go up there & mess around...or something like that.
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