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Post by Patcat on Jul 12, 2008 14:04:11 GMT -5
Yes, but Kathy is such a liar, to herself and everyone around her, that I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of her mouth.
Patcat
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 12, 2008 17:36:04 GMT -5
Yes, but Kathy is such a liar, to herself and everyone around her, that I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of her mouth. Patcat She's either had a lot of people fooled for a lot of years or the thing with Woody set her off. I wonder if Goren could tell her character by reading her books? He didn't think much of them, although I can't recall his words exactly. That leaking like a seive stab at the end, were the words of a cornered woman, hopefully without much substance, but definitely worth noting for future reference.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 13, 2008 19:33:38 GMT -5
You know, I was watching "Phantom" today, and what a work of art that is.
And then there's the aria in which Goren gets inside this sick man's head to tell him that everything that's ever happened to him is "not his fault." I was thinking of the contrast between that and Eames' "all of your wounds all self-inflicted," and while the scenario is obviously very different, the parallel has stuck with me. Remember too the scene in "The War at Home" where Goren wants to tell Wesley that his actions are not his fault, in the service of extracting a confession, and Eames' words sting so much: "You do that!" She's having none of it. It's like Goren, who in some sense has made a career of getting in these people's heads such that them being innocent in their own minds is part of his own emotional makeup--it's like he needs Eames to jolt him back to the reality that, yes, at times, wounds are self-inflicted. It's a very interesting pattern. I wonder if there are other examples to be spotted.
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Post by dragonsback on Jul 13, 2008 19:52:13 GMT -5
You know, I was watching "Phantom" today, and what a work of art that is. And then there's the aria in which Goren gets inside this sick man's head to tell him that everything that's ever happened to him is "not his fault." I was thinking of the contrast between that and Eames' "all of your wounds all self-inflicted," and while the scenario is obviously very different, the parallel has stuck with me. Remember too the scene in "The War at Home" where Goren wants to tell Wesley that his actions are not his fault, in the service of extracting a confession, and Eames' words sting so much: "You do that!" She's having none of it. It's like Goren, who in some sense has made a career of getting in these people's heads such that the potential for them being innocent in their own minds is part of his own emotional makeup--it's like he needs Eames to jolt him back to the reality that, yes, at times, wounds are self-inflicted. It's a very interesting pattern. I wonder if there are other examples to be spotted. Very prerceptive, D-Roe. In Goren's case, I'm wondering if the corollary is that wounds, however first inflicted, can be self-perpetuated. That people deal differently with the hand they have been dealt, that everyone has scars, but some - the perps - keep the wounds open, make them a central fact of their lives, and so keep re-inflicting themselves. I'm thinking here Lucille Mowbray, Declan's daughter, the childless delusional editor, etc. Lotsa examples. However Bobby was injured, he still scratches those wounds, and while he is too self-aware to buy into the "more sinned against than sinning" argument, he does apply it to others. PS: To your list of the originally self-inflicted, I would add Michael O'Keefe's priest.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 13, 2008 19:58:40 GMT -5
Historically, he was. But now? And where both Eames and his future are concerned?
I use that scene from "Phantom" in the classroom because it shows clearly an idea in some of the books I teach: you cannot let Fortune drag you down. If you believe that life has it in for you, you may effect that happening, and you may go crazy. Rankin's motivation is as twisted as you can get on the whole series; in some way, it's a bit of a cipher. Is he for or against his family? Charlotte Fielding ? Himself, even? Goren's motivation is never twisted--he is all about his family, for instance (and here I think we can take Eames' "all he was thinking was that he had to save Donny" on trust)--but in some ways, he may still not be self-aware.
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Post by dragonsback on Jul 13, 2008 20:24:20 GMT -5
As I recall the motel scene, Goren picks up on Rankin's fidelity: where Bobby had started down the road of Other Women, he does an abrupt 180 degrees on the subject of Rankin's sacrosanct view of marriage. Good on ya , Bobby:The creepiest thing about Rankin to me was that he wasn't a Don Juan at all, never slept with these women, just wanted their meagre loot.
Rankin became a killer by degrees, it seems to me. He wasn't so much twisted by nature as he was desperate to present himself to the world in the shiney guise of success when he was an abject failure, unable to finish any task.
The twisting path downhill became darker and darker and ever more desperate. From stealing from his parents to multiple murder, to wanting to send his children into oblivion so that they would never think badly of him (oh god, the "only two bullets" thing)- quite a descent, and all by choice. And all the way down, it was all about himself.
Goren intuits that Rankin feels as if he is helpless - and justified - in this spiral, and so feigns to connect with this creep.
Which brings me back your first point about Goren then and now: I believed Rankin's spiral; Goren's spiral is just , well, contrived , to me at least..
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Post by deathroe on Jul 13, 2008 21:23:57 GMT -5
Sooner or later I've got to list off the reasons why I've come to believe it's not :/ Precipitous, yes--out of character, alas no.
I do find myself wishing that the poor man could be happy.
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Post by dragonsback on Jul 13, 2008 21:39:39 GMT -5
Sooner or later I've got to list off the reasons why I've come to believe it's not :/ Precipitous, yes--out of character, alas no. I do find myself wishing that the poor man could be happy. I find myself wishing that the poor man(fictional character) had the capacity to speak in his accustomed voice. Wait until you see Legacy - I've read the script, courtesy of insiders here (perhaps you have , too) and Goren's lines - all 20 of 'em - are just about as insightful as what is your name and you done it
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Post by deathroe on Jul 13, 2008 21:58:08 GMT -5
Goodness--well, Vanishing Act looks pretty reasonably Goren-esque ... doesn't it? :/
I just have to wonder when if ever we're going to get a resolution to the issues raised in "Purgatory." it's an interesting question.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 13, 2008 22:56:47 GMT -5
Goodness--well, Vanishing Act looks pretty reasonably Goren-esque ... doesn't it? :/ I just have to wonder when if ever we're going to get a resolution to the issues raised in "Purgatory." it's an interesting question. Do you know if this is the episode where "Goren goes back to his roots"? I can't find any info on this.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 13, 2008 23:00:36 GMT -5
I find myself wishing that the poor man(fictional character) had the capacity to speak in his accustomed voice. Wait until you see Legacy - I've read the script, courtesy of insiders here (perhaps you have , too) and Goren's lines - all 20 of 'em - are just about as insightful as what is your name and you done it I know there was talk about getting Eames out in front more than she has been. Not so much of a supporting role but I thought it would at least be equal to Goren's not more than his.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 13, 2008 23:21:06 GMT -5
Isn't there some buzz every year about Eames being different? Again., I've never got this because I have such a strong idea of the character from watching KE.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 13, 2008 23:21:40 GMT -5
Thought maybe that was "Frame"?
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Post by deathroe on Jul 31, 2008 18:11:51 GMT -5
I watched this again yesterday ... not much excuse for it, but yeah. May have highlighted these things before, but
(1) Stoats' "I haven't seen any innocent people in a long time." This strikes me as very telling about the L&O franchise: how it just gets darker and darker, people's mentalities more and more twisted. And how CI in general is going.
(2) In retrospect, think the way Ross treated Eames was really, really bad. And Ross usually strikes me as a likeable character. Put yourself in her shoes. I'd have been pissed.
(3) The scene between Eames and Melago is exceptionally well-acted. At the risk of repetition, it's easy to forget sometimes just how good Erbe is.
(4) You have Melago asking Eames, what you never ... did x corrupt thing? and you have Stoats asking Goren the same thing. I know personally I always appreciate this kind of parallelism.
I am left struck by just how good this one was. It was different from what we usually see, but it certainly was not slipshod.
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Post by quietfireca on Aug 1, 2008 0:24:27 GMT -5
I watched this again yesterday ... not much excuse for it, but yeah. May have highlighted these things before, but (2) In retrospect, think the way Ross treated Eames was really, really bad. And Ross usually strikes me as a likeable character. Put yourself in her shoes. I'd have been pissed. He could have smoothed things over. I thought he was enjoying being the bossy boss, with no thought about how to get the partnership back on track. Even his comment to Kathy in Betrayed "they're working it out" shows he was leaving it totally up to them. He's a detective - he must have seen Eames body language in the observation room in Purgatory. He was probably glad the Chief of D's called so he could get the heck out of the room and leave the tension behind. What a whimp! And poor Goren took the brunt of her anger at Ross as well. Well, now I'm pissed at Ross all over again, too! I'm not sure he's that good a leader. (you guys are going to have to convince me. I listen to reason! Really.) How often does Eames get that heated in an interrogation? It was very interesting. She was getting all wound up for her confrontation with Goren. She even asked where he was when she came out of the Melago interview. (okay, really. Why did she ask where he was? - that was cut out of the CTV airing)
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