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Post by Patcat on Jun 9, 2008 15:23:01 GMT -5
My take is that Eames and the other cops didn't have access to hear what was going on, and that another cop (or cops) listening to the wire sent them in when it looked like trouble.
Again, just to hit my point again--I think Eames said a lot of things that needed to be said. I'm just not sure this was the best time to say them.
I wonder why Bobby wanted to return to the NYPD so much. I'd think he'd have other options. Perhaps it was not so much that he wanted to return to the NYPD as he wanted to work with Eames? (You may take this in a shippy or nonshippy way.)
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 9, 2008 15:35:15 GMT -5
The spiel she gives him at the end is all about how he could have died, how she could have killed him. It seems very in character for Eames. Not in a romantic sense--a little bit more like a parent and a child, really--but also highly consistent with what we know about her attitude to using her weapon ("a starter pistol! I nearly shot him over a starter pistol!") --No Frank or Donny. I didn’t miss them—did you? WORD Deathroe, on these two observations. Eames' anger & outrage was primarily due to the fact that she was put in a position to kill Goren. Put in that position by the Chief, her Captain & worst of all, her partner. Imagine the guilt if she shot him dead? Not only did I NOT miss Donny, but I was monetarily worried that Goren would spot Donny in Times Square while driving through. That would have been so fake.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 9, 2008 15:42:21 GMT -5
Is it known who put the rat in his desk? Not that I am aware of.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 9, 2008 15:43:29 GMT -5
well as long as he didn't spot Logan and Holly whatserface in a convertible, DonnaJo :-D
I would have liked to see Eames letting Ross have it, too. They treated her like a little girl the whole time. Very much in line with her fears about the "old buddy boy system."
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 9, 2008 15:43:48 GMT -5
to regain the badge was as if it was a quest to regain himself. and to find a father figure! something else: the chief of D's just DUMPS the envelope's contents on the desk, doesn't pin the badge on Goren ... strikes me as a little off??? The Chief clearly doesn't like Bobby at all. He was disrespectful from the jump and that last bit, with him dumping the envelope was just another slight. He should have handed Bobby his shield, not dumped it out of the envelope and onto the desk. I reiterate my opinion of this particular Chief as a creep.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 9, 2008 15:49:52 GMT -5
I'm sure part of it was wanting to be back with Eames.
Siobhan Byrne-O'Connor's comments up on USA are a great window on how this relationship is.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 9, 2008 15:58:09 GMT -5
What I have trouble forgiving the Chief of D's for is his support of Patrick Copa in AMENDS, which I believe led to Goren's justifiable paranoia regarding the Chief. Copa should have live rats in his desk, ready to bite the whining (please fill in the blank with your choice of expletive). Patcat AGREED! I was surprised to see Copa in the beginning of the show, then irritated that he's still whining. I wanted to scream at him, Grow up, dude! Yes, I have issues. . .as I do realize that Copa would not have heard me. But then, Bobby couldn't hear me warning him not to do anything during the drug deal either. Didn't stop me from telling him anyway! LOL!
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 9, 2008 15:58:56 GMT -5
I think Patcat is right about Eames and the other swat members not being able to hear what was going on in the room. They probably just knew that they were bursting into a hostage situation involving their "ears" being made and about to be shot.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 9, 2008 16:10:54 GMT -5
I feel like there has to be some REASON they brought in Copa. It's too random, otherwise (and the writing doesn't seem as sloppy as one might sometimes have accused it of being of late). New theory about the rat: Mary McCormack planted it. Or perhaps Mary really is Nicole, who has relocated to Albuquerque and gotten plastic surgery and .. hit me if you see me posting here again, okay?!
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 9, 2008 16:27:07 GMT -5
I feel like there has to be some REASON they brought in Copa. It's too random, otherwise (and the writing doesn't seem as sloppy as one might sometimes have accused it of being of late). New theory about the rat: Mary McCormack planted it. Or perhaps Mary really is Nicole, who has relocated to Albuquerque and gotten plastic surgery and .. hit me if you see me posting here again, okay?! Copa seemed to be the darling of the 1013 who rallied around him because he lost his pension/etc.. Even though he did it to himself and in the process his partner was killed didn't seem to matter to the boys club. He was one of their own which Goren is not. Then Goren "rats" out another one of their own....Stoats. Prior to that Goren brought down Frank Adair. Another one of their own and as Deakins put it "a cops cop". All this just fuels the rat fire. For some reason very little of this splashed on Eames even though she was in on the Adair/Copa thing. At some point I think Ross will be put in a situation where he will have to make a choice. Back Goren or face the wrath of the higher ups.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 9, 2008 17:53:05 GMT -5
Siobhan Byrne-O'Connor's comments up on USA are a great window on how this relationship is. Siobhan's comments really help clarify the dynamics between Goren & Eames during "Purgatory." Here is the link: Episode Commentary of PurgatoryI found Copa's physical attack on Goren upsetting, especially seeing Goren's passive attitude. He should have defended himself physically, or at the least yelled back. This wimpy behavior is bothersome. I know he's hurting emotionally, but Goren needed to employ his very effective arm twisting trick.
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Post by nancyt on Jun 9, 2008 18:11:40 GMT -5
DonnaJo -- Goren's acceptance of Copa's physical attack didn't strike me as wimpy; it struck me as smart. Goren thinks VERY FAST, and when Copa attacked him, Goren knew that if he fought back in any way, the whole thing would be seen as Goren's fault; Copa's beginning the fight would just be overlooked. If what you want more than anything is to be put back on the job, being engaged with another cop in a bar brawl -- even if the other cop started it -- is certainly not going to help you achieve it.
As to why it took so long for Eames and the others to show up once the wire had been discovered: Maybe the apartment was in a place with very limited access -- only one hall, only one staircase, something like that. If they had to dash in from a truck or a hiding place on the street and run upstairs, their response seems actually pretty fast.
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Jun 9, 2008 19:11:09 GMT -5
I wondered if the "passive Goren" was because he was already undercover? He was there for Stotes and Copa was used to get Stotes involved. Maybe Copa is being used also in his own way, out of his own "Purgatory". He messed up big, and it was too convenient... the big party in Goren's neighborhood. I think that it was all tied together.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jun 9, 2008 21:37:23 GMT -5
Well, I've read everyone's posts and listened to the interview with the writer, Siobhan O'Connor and I am so happy and excited we have a new episode to talk about! And one that is so controversial! It was a difficult day to concentrate at work today, thinking about this show. So much to savor!
Robert in the neighborhood bar (Donna - have you figured out his neighborhood yet?) having a beer and tormenting himself with flashbacks of "Heaven" while he's now in "Purgatory" - it is so hard to let go of bad memories! Even through all this bullsh*t with Copa, and meeting Stoats, and seeing the gun in the newspaper, he is still on his toes about it possibly being a setup. I like that. We do see Robert express more fear than ever in this episode - fear of being set up, fear of bodily harm, fear of losing his partner for good, fear of what's going to happen next, but I believe the fact that he continues his quest to get his job back by allowing himself to be thrown into such a dangerous undercover assignment proves his incredible bravery. Isn't bravery facing one's fears and relying on one's skills and instincts to get one through the storm? Robert faces it all and survives. And gets the bad guys. He was all Goren in the interrogation room with Stoats. He was the good cop, who knows he is a good cop, and does what he does best - his job. Unfortunately, relationships are not his strong point and he screws up big-time with Eames. She rightfully lets him have it (AWESOME JOB, KATHRYN!). Sometimes all a person needs to forgive is to hear the words "I am sorry" and sometimes it's just not enough. This is a case of just not enough and Eames was so right to express her anger toward him. He deserved it. Hopefully, he will find a way to let her know he really is sorry and will never do such a thing again. She may never forget, but I believe she will forgive him. It's normal in a relationship for one (or both) to let the other down. People make mistakes. It's how they handle the aftermath that brings forgiveness or not. I think he will try to be more understanding of what she has had to deal with in his shadow, and step back some to let the light shine on her. He believes she is a wonderful detective and partner; he just needs to let her know he believes it.
When Robert got his badge and gun back, he was so filled with joy and I was so proud of him! That glimpse of happiness was so short-lived! Eames is still angry with him and of course , the rat. Who put it there? He still needs to be on the defensive and sharp as a tack about being setup or intentionally injured by a co-worker or higher up. He's definitely NOT paranoid - just smart to follow his instincts and keep aware of his situation at all times. I don't know where this conspiracy is going, but I am afraid for him. And as some posters have mentioned, there is the ever-present threat of Nicole popping up somewhere to hurt him. She will never forgive him for their last encounter where she blames him for "one more thing he's taken from her".
I had a great time watching this show, as I know I will again and again! And I am sure more things will be spotted by the sleuths on this board, more questions will be asked, and more theories will be discussed. I look forward to it all!
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Post by Summerfield on Jun 9, 2008 21:52:20 GMT -5
Goren put himself in a position to get killed. Remember the exchange between Goren and Ross? What I think pissed Eames off was not that she could have shot him, but she is a she. She's still one of 50 out of over 500. I think her anger comes from the fact that even though she's a member of MCS, she's still regarded as Goren's partner and was left out of a major undercover even if it was to protect her. And when Goren said "to protect" her, I think he was referring to her career.
No one has mentioned the physical change in VDO's Goren as the hour progressed.
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