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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 10, 2008 15:42:04 GMT -5
I wonder if Ross might mediate between Eames and Bobby G. He should, given the fact that it was him that told Bobby to keep it quiet. I was disappointed he didn't intervene already. I thought he would have at least said "Eames. . .he didn't have a choice. . ." Something like that.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 10, 2008 15:53:57 GMT -5
Drawing on what others have said, why does Goren react differently now to things than he used to? (1) His mother's death? People suffering bereavement can act very irrationally. (2) Difficulties with Eames? Fear of losing her? Love #$&*#$(s people up (not necessarily romantic love. Eames is clearly very imprtant to her, and he may think even at the start of the episode that she has rejected him.) (3) Just a general sense of mortality, now that he is older? A lot of people go through that. Or a bad phase? Being rejected by a group or by a person in any sense can force a person to go through a real sea change. It might not be what we like, if we like snappy! bBobby of S1-4, but it does seem more true to human life. (4) I think things like "The War at Home" show a general anxiety toward the times. None of the franchise shows, you may have noticed, are as rational as they used to be. CI starts getting really dark around S4, and if you ask me, it's never bounced back any more than SVU has. I still really enjoy the shows; this simply strikes me as the case. So, which of these do we want to privilege? All of the above? Deathroe..... It could be all of the above. If he had only one issue to deal with, it wouldn't have had the effect all of these incidents have had. The accumulation of this pile of emotional angst mounting up wore him down. There was nothing left to handle the problems. Each and every trial took its toll on him until finally there was nothing left no cushion or pad to protect the raw inner self. These things left him bloody and reeling unable to rebound and using poor judgment when a choice had to be made. Kind of like.....you can handle this or you can handle that, but you can't handle it all. This is one of the things I like about the dramatic turn. Bobby's emotional vulnerability is true to life. We all love him as the fidgety, slightly quirky "boy genius", but as with all of us in real life, things happen sometimes that beat us down, wear us out. The thing I am hoping to see is the journey he takes to get back to a more even keel. Breaking down is normal, but no one should ever stay down. I'm looking forward to seeing Bobby regain his balance.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 10, 2008 15:55:56 GMT -5
Maybe not, but to her being kept in the dark by Ross and Goren represented the "old buddy boy" system she hates so much. I took "I can't do that" to mean he couldn't go undercover. Good save about Olivet: I too dislike it when they get those details wrong. About Olivet: maybe she went back for her M.D.? It's been a few years since that little discussion she had with Skoda about it. Maybe it motivated her to get her M.D.. Just a thought.
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on Jun 10, 2008 18:30:43 GMT -5
Ah, yes. Skoda. I had a mental block and couldn't remember his name for the life of me. OBChick, I guess we fans can rationalize it that way, but it seems like a stretch to me. I feel like they have stretched us enough with some ridiculous plot devices, and could just stick to est. cannon, especially where it doesn't even matter! In the absence of acute mental illness, a psycologist with a PhD in counseling would be a far better choice anyway. Calling her an MD seems like a pointless mistake, and these little things annoy me. Re: Goren's money, I gather the reason he considered the gig in the first place was b/c he needed the money, not b/c he initially saw any opportunity for redemption. I don't think he considered that at the outset, but rather it seemed to occur to him as the situtation unfolded. However, it seems implausible to me he could have gone 5 months without some kind of income producing job. Perhaps they will refer back to something like that later..."While I was on suspension I was working in that building as a......." Kind of like when Eames made a ref to having been at a benefit while on maternity leave thrown by someone they were investigating. I'll feel better when they do that. Ah, but there is the dichotomy. I far preferred CI when they didn't inclide personal details at all, but now that we've gone down this road it could at least be done well, kwim? In any case, I liked the fact that Eames finally got her aria, but disliked the context. It was a stupid thing to get upset about, everything else considered. As someone who has been a part of police culture her entire life, Eames would have understood. The writers put her in a context that does not make sense to me. Not being told is a nonstarter. She should be plenty pissed about the whole Tates thing. Skinny psycho chick was right, Eames will never make Captain, and the Tates episode will likely keep her from making Lt! He has, in effect, torpedoed her career. She has EVERY right to be completely apocolyptic about THAT. I am glad the show is back, I hope we can get back to seeing crimes from the perspective of the offender, and then solving them, without Eames going EMO or Goren going bat sh!t crazy. It was just so much more FUN when Eames was calm, cool, detached, and collected, and Goren was just odd. Quirky is entertaining, crazy is a cliche. The elevator scene when Ross is headed to Lincoln Center has been the highlight of the season so far, and that is a pretty sad commentary. The discussions on this BB are far more engaging than anything on the series haas been.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 19:08:22 GMT -5
As to the lack of income......perhaps his mother had a life insurance policy...small but something to help tide him over a financial rough spot. There is also a paid suspension. If he has mental issues (which he has become known for) the department would or could put him on some kind of paid leave. Would it be short term disability. I am just throwing things out here. How would the suspension impact a short term disability leave? Things to ponder......
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 10, 2008 19:11:14 GMT -5
Hi Annabelleleigh. Good to see you here! I think I've been so busy obsessing about Goren's behavior, that I haven't really addressed how I feel about Eames. Her reaction towards Goren was that of a dear friend who was truly upset that she had almost killed him. It's not only Goren that she's upset with, it's Ross as well. But as her superior, she can't lash out at Ross, so she vents all of her frustration on her subordinate partner. Goren may not have answered her, but he heard every word she said. I believe he'll tread lightly around her for a while, as he should. "Do you know how many times I've lied for you?" More times than we, the viewer, have been allowed to observe, I bet. Over the eight years of their partnership, I would guess dozens of times. And like the time in Depths, I'm sure he never really noticed. Deathroe, very good point about Goren's sense of mortality kicking in, along with definite signs of depression. Now that I have had time to think, I can understand his apathetic attitude about Copa'a attack. He's going through the motions, a clear sign of the numbness that accompanies depression. And being older, he has more fear. That "Superman Complex" we've talked about Goren displaying in prior seasons is gone. He knows his limits now. So my hero is gone, and in his place is just a regular guy trying to make it in a tough world, basically alone. My heart goes out to him & I still care. But I miss that hero!
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 10, 2008 19:14:11 GMT -5
In any case, I liked the fact that Eames finally got her aria, but disliked the context. It was a stupid thing to get upset about, everything else considered. As someone who has been a part of police culture her entire life, Eames would have understood. The writers put her in a context that does not make sense to me. Not being told is a nonstarter. She should be plenty pissed about the whole Tates thing. Skinny psycho chick was right, Eames will never make Captain, and the Tates episode will likely keep her from making Lt! He has, in effect, torpedoed her career. She has EVERY right to be completely apocolyptic about THAT. Of course you're absolutely right about the Tates thing. But I don't think her career is all she has or is interested in. She has family to ground her. And she wants her crime-solving partner back. She hasn't stuck with him because she knew it would help her climb the career ladder* - she thrives on his quirkiness and delights in his unexpected insights and connections. (I wonder at what point it occurred to her he was her career albatross - someone please feel free to jump in and disagree with me that he's not an albatross - I'm just rambling here! ........... Before the "Skinny psycho chick"?) The fact that Eames has such a high regard for Goren and that she's guarded him and stood up for him through the thin times of the last few years allowed her tightly controlled bubble to burst with the undercover revelation. She knows she shouldn't be surprised she was kept out of the loop, but she must have felt so shut out of something she'd invested so much in and couldn't contain her frustration any longer. And that's about as far as I can go since I've only seen the 2 minute clip on USA and thoroughly enjoyed what y'all have been telling me. It looks as though she was backing away from Goren when she says "you're under cover, you don't tell me?" *although do we have any insight into their recent arrest/conviction statistics?
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 19:18:40 GMT -5
So my hero is gone, and in his place is just a regular guy trying to make it in a tough world, basically alone. My heart goes out to him & I still care. But I miss that hero! My sentiments exactly. Every episode I hope for a return to the Goren of old only to have my hopes dashed. I will always be a fan of the show but my favorite time of the series was when he was young, quirky and with spring in his step and on top of his game. Optimism wafting around him.
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 10, 2008 19:22:41 GMT -5
That "Superman Complex" we've talked about Goren displaying in prior seasons is gone. He knows his limits now. So my hero is gone, and in his place is just a regular guy trying to make it in a tough world, basically alone. My heart goes out to him & I still care. But I miss that hero! Eeeek, DonnaJo, don't say that!! We've invested a lot in Goren, too! I prefer to think that he's still a superman, but when he's not allowed to do what he does best.... And you know the rest. We need to get him back to work. He needs to exercise his brain, not his elbow (at the bar stool).
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 19:31:41 GMT -5
I wonder at what point it occurred to her he was her career albatross - someone please feel free to jump in and disagree with me that he's not an albatross - I'm just rambling here! ........... Before the "Skinny psycho chick"?) He has become her albatross. I don't believe it started out that way. I know that she started to see his failings in POI. She said to Goren that he didn't listen to what the wife was saying. It was at a point that Goren was blinded by his father issues. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything earlier but I bet others here can come up with something. Although she did formally request a new partner early on in the partnership only to withdraw it. I believe her realization of Goren as a career liability has been a gradual process. Oh just thought of another possible example......Nelda.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 10, 2008 19:33:22 GMT -5
As to the lack of income......perhaps his mother had a life insurance policy...small but something to help tide him over a financial rough spot. There is also a paid suspension. If he has mental issues (which he has become known for) the department would or could put him on some kind of paid leave. Would it be short term disability. I am just throwing things out here. How would the suspension impact a short term disability leave? Things to ponder...... His situation can't be too bad. He still has his sweet ride, that vintage convertible he was driving. If he was desperate that would have been the first thing to sell. Trust me, you can go a long time without $$$ if you just pay the dire necessities, like food & maybe your electric bill. Been there, done that. I bet you he owes his landlord a few months back rent. My guess is that he borrowed against his 401K or IRA plan with the NYPD. He's still vested, and this would be considered an emergency reason to pull funds. After all these years, there would be a sizable amount.
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 10, 2008 19:47:19 GMT -5
I wonder at what point it occurred to her he was her career albatross - someone please feel free to jump in and disagree with me that he's not an albatross - I'm just rambling here! ........... Before the "Skinny psycho chick"?) He has become her albatross. I don't believe it started out that way. I know that she started to see his failings in POI. She said to Goren that he didn't listen to what the wife was saying. It was at a point that Goren was blinded by his father issues. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything earlier but I bet others here can come up with something. Although she did formally request a new partner early on in the partnership only to withdraw it. I believe her realization of Goren as a career liability has been a gradual process. Oh just thought of another possible example......Nelda. I assumed that the formal request for a new partner happened before the first episode. ? Eames wouldn't have stayed in the partnership if she wasn't getting something out of it. Hmmmm. One of those great open-ended things you can ponder from all sorts of angles. The writer's are so good at ambiguity! Sure gives us something to talk about!
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 10, 2008 19:53:06 GMT -5
His situation can't be too bad. He still has his sweet ride, that vintage convertible he was driving. If he was desperate that would have been the first thing to sell. Trust me, you can go a long time without $$$ if you just pay the dire necessities, like food & maybe your electric bill. Been there, done that. I bet you he owes his landlord a few months back rent. My guess is that he borrowed against his 401K or IRA plan with the NYPD. He's still vested, and this would be considered an emergency reason to pull funds. After all these years, there would be a sizable amount. Could he have used long term disability or medical leave? I was wondering how much he would have spent supporting his mother - money which would now be freed up. It didn't look like he lived in a posh apartment when we saw him sitting on the floor leaning against the wall at the beginning of Amends. He uses the library and doesn't dress as well as he did in early years.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 21:23:54 GMT -5
I assumed that the formal request for a new partner happened before the first episode. ? As far as I am aware the first time the request letter was mentioned was in the episode In the Wee Small Hours. It was on the stand at the Hot Tub Harry's trial.
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 10, 2008 22:44:16 GMT -5
I assumed that the formal request for a new partner happened before the first episode. ? As far as I am aware the first time the request letter was mentioned was in the episode In the Wee Small Hours. It was on the stand at the Hot Tub Harry's trial. And that was Season 5 and she had written the request 5 years before..... Hmm, so it could have been during that first season. Wonder what made her withdraw it? Guess I better go read that thread and see what everyone had to say! And *that* could take a while - there are probably a bazillion comments on it!!! (I've been holding off reading that thread until I see the episodes again and that appears to be happening in the next week - finger crossed!) You think Eames is composing another request for a new partner after her explosion? Hopefully, it would once again be withdrawn or additionally interestingly, be denied.
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