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Post by annabelleleigh on Jun 26, 2008 18:16:21 GMT -5
I agree with ragincajun. Why is everyone so hung up on Goren's look? As said, not all of the detectives on the L&O shows wear suits and ties all of the time... And maybe, on CI, they no longer can. According to various media reports USA Network is producing episodes for about 70% of what they cost when the series was broadcast on NBC. I can well imagine that Old Navy replaced Armani in the budget. AL
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jun 26, 2008 20:49:33 GMT -5
I've just seen "Betrayed" and have read all of the comments here, many of which were much better than the show. The Diana Son interview on the USA site was a revelation. There was another story idea that "got scotched" -- and so the writers scotch-taped this script together, kind of like "Contract." Thus the weak plot, obvious outcome, borrowed metaphors from past episodes, and all the scene and dialogue discontinuity. Whew! Either the writers haven't yet recovered from the WGA strike, or Warren Leight was off negotiating with HBO when these last two episodes were in the works. Watching that Diana Son interview (after seeing "Betrayed") I kept asking myself how this could be the same person responsible for the excellent "Depths" -- and whether she has been watching the same CI that I have. What does she mean, we are "slowly" watching all four detectives and Ross take on "more layers"? Like all things had been/are developing equally and the same. Is she serious when she's says "we're not changing the show...it's still about the mystery..."? Has she ever watched a bunch of G/E shows back-to-back with L/partner du jour episodes? Did anyone else find it disconcerting to hear a CI co-executive producer and writer describe a series that in significant ways seems unlike the one we discuss in these fan forums? AL P.S. And what's with Son's delusion that "Kathy" in this episode is Goren's equal? What a very pale, almost evanescent recall of the powerful Nicole Wallace character. I have to agree, AL, the Diana Son interview was a revelation. I liked her enthusiasm, but the more she talked, the more I thought "What the heck is she talking about?" Then I thought that I'm not "getting" the show at all, if this is really what's going on. And as for Kathy being equal to Goren, well that's just ridiculous! Her character couldn't touch him. For crying out loud, Nicole obviously has been his only real contender. Even Neil from F.P.S., who researched Goren's weaknesses when planning his crime is closer to him than Kathy was. She was actually pretty stupid considering her experience in and with the Police Department. I loved "Purgatory", but "Betrayal" didn't have a very cohesive, or interesting story. It seemed to be all over the place. I did enjoy all the Goren/Eames interactions and am fascinated with how "in sync" Kathryn and Vincent are in their portrayals of being "out of sync". I don't get the "layers" thing either. I know Vincent once said that they all can't be great shows, so I am writing this one off as one of the lesser ones as far as plot. "Contract" was even worse - no plot and no character development. They were written shortly after the Writer's Strike, I think, and maybe the writers need some more time to get back into the swing of things. Thankfully, with several more shows to go this season, and a new season to look forward to, they will have plenty of opportunity to improve.
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 26, 2008 23:16:42 GMT -5
I liked her enthusiasm, but the more she talked, the more I thought "What the heck is she talking about?" Thank you for saying that, Susan. I though it was just me being obtuse. You would think the writers would have had lots of time to fertilize their imaginations while they were away. Perhaps it was the whole crew that was out of sync - therefore the whole show was out of sync.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 27, 2008 7:27:16 GMT -5
May I agree with you ladies? Diana Son is obviously very intelligent & talented, but she should not be allowed to discuss LOCI with the media, LOL! You could see that she had a bazillion incisive thoughts in her head, but she couldn't express them coherently. It was painful to watch.
I know that feeling. Sometimes you just can't articulate. I'm sure if she were able to write her thoughts, they would have been fantastic.
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Post by Patcat on Jun 27, 2008 8:43:53 GMT -5
I thought that Kathy THOUGHT she was brighter than Goren. As I wrote before, she made the classic LOCI villain mistake of thinking she was smarter than the detectives. She also underestimated Danny Ross' morality. When Ross knew--or better, was convinced--Kathy was the killer, he backed up his detectives completely.
Patcat
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on Jun 27, 2008 9:57:54 GMT -5
Interesting points deathroe. ITA re: the Eric Roberts scene w/ Eames. Completely foolish. What a sad underuse of Roberts, not to mention an embarrassingly trite scene for Erbe. I suppose the intent was to provoke him and give them a reason to hold him. One wonders if a better writer could have come up with something beside a lame sexual referece. Idont watch SVU, and I cannot STAND Hargitay, so I can't comment on if this was something more akin to that character. I just think it was stupid and classless. ITA that Great Barrier was the beginning of the slump we find ourselves in. If Son wreote THAT mess, I surely don't want to see her as showrunner. Who wrote and/or directed great epis like "Probablity." "Cubra Libre" or "Want?" THAT person seems to understand the show and the characters. Get him/her to run the show! I don't care about Erbe's hair anymore than I do VDO's weight. Neither is looking their best these days. :shrug: I don't watch the show for fashion tips. Perhaps it is method acting, lol, or perhaps like the rest of us, they are aging IRL. It has been known to happen.
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Jun 27, 2008 10:41:23 GMT -5
I caught the episode by chance last night. Boy it's been awhile since I watched a CI episode!
Goren was obviously walking on eggshells in this one, but what I like about the character (a personality trait that seems to still have value for the writing team) is that when he thinks something should be investigated further he doesn't let go, even if it means bordering on insubordination. From this, Eames is often placed between a rock and a hard place, but she doesn't seem to mind.
I always loved watching the Goren's wires at work and got a great opportunity when he and Eames were interrogating Kathy, but it was only a brief encounter because besides the intense look Goren gave Kathy, as if he was dissecting her mind, nothing else was done. Kathy was completely oblivious of that look and nothing was said or done by Goren. Usually, we get a small facial acknowledgement by Goren that states : Ah ha! gotcha!
A nice little episode that left some stuff open to discussion!
Oh...to follow on the shallow thread : there is no way D'Onofrio is that fat anymore, I've seen pictures and the 2 body frames don't match! Here's my completely baseless theory, I think they make D'Onofrio wear a belly suit to make him look fatter.
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 27, 2008 11:08:26 GMT -5
The enigmatic Eames…..
I re-watched the scene with Goren and Eames when he says “You’re right Eames…. I’m just saying you’re right”. For some reason this scene made me so uncomfortable. Personally, I would have kicked him in the shins and said Don’t patronize me! She just looked at him in that enigmatic way she has. Maybe she couldn’t believe what she was hearing and had to walk away to process the comment.
This reminded me so much of that wonderful scene in TWSH after Eames was on the witness stand. After she apologized to him and he said he was lucky she withdrew her letter, she watched him walk away. Another enigmatic look.
Bravo to KE for leaving this so open to interpretation. But I’d really like to know what Eames was thinking!!!
Anyone have any extra insight I’m missing?
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Post by deathroe on Jun 27, 2008 15:02:49 GMT -5
an embarrassingly trite scene for Erbe.
Not the first one. Seriously, all of us, whatever we do with our lives, we can gain some inspiration from Eames/Erbe on how to do the odd silk purse/sow's ear maneuver.
they are aging IRL.
I like them the way they look. Mutton in lamb's clothing is a great bore.
Gosh, don't mind my snark ... this really does seem to be the summer of everyone's discontent.
quitefireca ... "enigmatic" is a very good way of putting it. I also think of her as being very buttoned-down. She has a very hard time telling him how she feels--really, they both do--which must have made the blasting she gave him in "Purgatory" doubly difficult. I keep coming back to that scene where he tells her he's not going in with her to the wake party (there is still a part of me that thinks maybe he should have, or at least given her the opportunity to nix the idea). The way she just sort of looks at him, looks away from him and puts her head down is sheer brilliance. I cannot think of better acting than we get from those two, even on a crappy episode.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 27, 2008 17:20:06 GMT -5
I caught the episode by chance last night. Boy it's been awhile since I watched a CI episode! Goren was obviously walking on eggshells in this one, but what I like about the character (a personality trait that seems to still have value for the writing team) is that when he thinks something should be investigated further he doesn't let go, even if it means bordering on insubordination. From this, Eames is often placed between a rock and a hard place, but she doesn't seem to mind. I always loved watching the Goren's wires at work and got a great opportunity when he and Eames were interrogating Kathy, but it was only a brief encounter because besides the intense look Goren gave Kathy, as if he was dissecting her mind, nothing else was done. Kathy was completely oblivious of that look and nothing was said or done by Goren. Usually, we get a small facial acknowledgement by Goren that states : Ah ha! gotcha! A nice little episode that left some stuff open to discussion! Oh...to follow on the shallow thread : there is no way D'Onofrio is that fat anymore, I've seen pictures and the 2 body frames don't match! Here's my completely baseless theory, I think they make D'Onofrio wear a belly suit to make him look fatter. I think they are padding him, too. Frances looked at him in "Endgame" and told him he wasn't taking care of himself, that his hair was gray. Couple the agony of watching his mother die of cancer, what he's been through with his brother, then Brady, and you have a guy that's just sort of letting it all go at the moment. So it follows that there would be an effort to have him look the part. Oh, but about his hair. . .aside from the sexy curls, anybody notice that it's looking a bit darker and less gray now? It looks like he colored it, and left just a little of the gray in. Could that signify that Bobby is beginning to take care of himself again?
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 27, 2008 17:22:47 GMT -5
an embarrassingly trite scene for Erbe. Not the first one. Seriously, all of us, whatever we do with our lives, we can gain some inspiration from Eames/Erbe on how to do the odd silk purse/sow's ear maneuver. they are aging IRL.I like them the way they look. Mutton in lamb's clothing is a great bore. Gosh, don't mind my snark ... this really does seem to be the summer of everyone's discontent. quitefireca ... "enigmatic" is a very good way of putting it. I also think of her as being very buttoned-down. She has a very hard time telling him how she feels--really, they both do--which must have made the blasting she gave him in "Purgatory" doubly difficult. I keep coming back to that scene where he tells her he's not going in with her to the wake party (there is still a part of me that thinks maybe he should have, or at least given her the opportunity to nix the idea). The way she just sort of looks at him, looks away from him and puts her head down is sheer brilliance. I cannot think of better acting than we get from those two, even on a crappy episode. He should have gone into the wake party, but there again, that is a symptom of the "people-pleaser", avoiding conflict and confrontation whenever possible. He stayed outside because he didn't want to face the roomful of hostility he was sure would be in there.
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Post by dragonsback on Jun 27, 2008 20:49:58 GMT -5
The great thing about Leslie Hendrix's scene as Rogers was that she was wonderfully ambivalent. I saw hurt and jealousy in her response, as well as sympathy for someone she cared about. Patcat Yes, nicely picked, Patcat. The one moment that satisfied me in the entire episode. In fact, if I could master the multiple quote thing, I would include a bouquet of comments from this thread, from Donna to Annabelle to Lovesong to Deathroe to qfc, and well, on and on. All of you have picked the eyes out of this one, and god knows I'm not entirely sure that it was worth the close study. Okay, on my own here. For me, watching this episode was like watching elephants trying to pole vault. Big ideas here that rarely got off the ground, and when they did, they lumbered a few feet off the ground, then fell back to earth. Or slowly collapsed in a heap. Or they wandered off the field in search of peanuts. The Eames-Roy interrogation scene could have been a gem. Wasn't. The interplay between Goren and Kathy could have been a new take on Nicole. Wasn't. The interaction between Ross and Kathy could have been... - nah, was just lame-o. Kathy herself could have been a contender for a brilliant black widow. Wasn't. And on and on and on. The storyboard for this one must have looked great. Certainly, the acting generally was beyond reproach (although Ross/Bogosian made me cringe for the first time - that sofa scene was perfunctorily performed - high school play stuff). It was the writing - the plot advancement, and worse, the dialogue - that screwed this pooch. No getting around it, IMO. This ep is just a prime example of extremely sloppy scriptwriting. And when the medical examiner's van rolled up (oh puleese), and cop-turned crime writer Kathy was sucked in to the notion that her husband's exhumed five-years-dead corpse had been trucked in for the occasion (as if, and does anyone imagine Nicole's baby-doll smile at this ruse?), and said corpse gave her no choice but to confess (as if, and now Nicole is rolling on the grass in laughter) and the whole mishmash mercifully ended, I thought: Privilege and Graansha, you are redeemed. Here at last is the True Worst Ending/Aria Ever. Ah yes, I too heard the echo of the brilliant "Shandeh". As I recall, that chilling line went something like: "Danny, do sumptin'! DO sumptin' !" Writers, DO sumptin'! P.S Note to writers: If your intention is to pit Great Minds against one another, Goren-Nicole style, then great-mind dialogue/dialectic is really, really A Good Thing. Diana Son, no personal offense (big fan here of your plays), but are they putting something in the water over at Chelsea Piers?
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 27, 2008 22:45:32 GMT -5
For your Friday night amusement.... Another little mental inch from this episode had me noting 180 degree turn abouts:
A week ago Woody was an old soul and now he's a sociopath....
makes me think of:
"Captain, we're partners" in Blindspot and now it's "You needed both of us for this? "
Can you tell I just re-watched Blindspot??? vbg!
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Post by deathroe on Jun 28, 2008 13:44:31 GMT -5
The thing about the "two of us" remark: it was less maybe how she meant it than how he took it.
Even though the script was puzzling and we may be dissatisfied with Goren in the background or G and E fighting--it is interesting to watch the two actors tackle these problems in their acting.
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Jun 28, 2008 14:38:41 GMT -5
--Goren's anxious look when Eames asks if they're "both" needed on this missing husbands case. Take that for what you will. What do you take it for?
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