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Post by deathroe on Jul 6, 2008 23:59:15 GMT -5
AL, I'm honestly kind of bewildered that these are mostly (or often) the same writers, considering how witless the writing has become. I will say--this was mildly amusing for the first half hour. given the old-school quality. But I still thought the end was bathos, SVU lite. I don't think I've seen anything in S7 yet that outdoes the best of S6 ("The War at Home," "Brother's Keeper," "Endgame"). "Amends" and "Untethered" were almost at that level but struck me as being more about the acting than about the writing (well, so did "Endgame," really). On second viewing (because it's not like I have a life or anything , the comparison with "Siren Call" seems especially apt. Goren appeals to Marla's parenthood, just as he appeals to Wisniewski's responsibility for wife and daughter in that episode. On another note--and I feel somewhat disloyal for saying this, but--I feel like there is such a thing as underplaying. Erbe and D'Onofrio seemed particularly guilty of that, here: I felt there was a sleepwalked quality.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jul 7, 2008 0:16:36 GMT -5
...I don't think I've seen anything in S7 yet that outdoes the best of S6... Or even equals the best of S6. Actors need inspiration to excel, and if VDO and Erbe drifted through this episode (and I don't disagree that they did) perhaps it's due to the deja vu of story and script. Do we dare hope for a creative shake-up that will re-inject CI with surprise and scintillation? AL P.S. D-Roe, there is absolutely nothing "disloyal" about thoughtful criticism. I look forward to more of same from you.
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Post by nwchimom on Jul 7, 2008 1:58:10 GMT -5
I lived in NYC for many years so I understand that upper-class New Yorkers are obsessed with getting their children into the "right" pre-schools -- so much so that we've seen a variation on this theme across all of the L&O shows, including at least one past CI episode. Enough already with that. Dear CI writers, I don't care. I'll even venture to say that most of us (non-Manhattanites) can't relate and/or are bored silly with the subject. You have the extraordinary opportunity to grab the attention of millions of people for 43 minutes over many weeks, and this is how you use it? Mr. Leight and company: In this episode you display a lack of originality and passion for your gig. You are going through the motions, churning out scripts for the paychecks they bring. Time not only to change the showrunner (and I wish WL all the best at HBO) but also to bring in some new scribes. I truly appreciate your many fine contributions, but -- dear writers -- you have run out of stories to tell. Fresh insight and new approaches to the concept of "criminal intent" are also sorely needed. My comrade D-Roe, do you agree? Do others? AL I agree. It's bad enough when the three sister shows do the same story...even worse when one show repeats itself. It's almost like the writers had a story wheel to help with this episode: getting into the right school (Enemy Within, Bright Boy), husband stepping out with other men (Maltese Cross, Brother's Keeper), Goren and Eames held at gunpoint (Siren Call, Phantom). I think my favorite moment of the episode (of the past season and a half?) came when Goren and Eames were at Rikers to interview the ex-husband of one of the victims. They were from the Far Rockaway neighborhood of the Rockaways..and you might recall that Eames' address was given in Blind Spot as 27 Beach Crest, Rockaway. So the ex says he thinks his wife was having affairs, including with the preacher from the soup kitchen where she worked. "She had to take a job all the way out in the city? C'mon, I knew what was going on," he said. Eames looks down at Goren, and Goren looks up at Eames, then back to his file and....there it is! The old Bobby grin. Oh, how I adored that moment!
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 7, 2008 7:14:31 GMT -5
] The look on his face and the plea in his tone said it all, Patcat. He didn't need to tell her that he had lost his mother. WE all know that and he knows we know. That was a beautiful scene, from the standpoint of emotion, and it was that intense emotion that had me thinking he was going to hug Marla instead of pushing her into the wall.
As always, bravo to VDO for the ability to make me feel his pain. And Bravo to you. OB, for the ability to explain exactly what I was feeling. Lord, I adored (and needed to see) that (kind of) aria! For what is wasn't. No over the top gyrations from VDO, no overacting, no whining about losing his mother. Just his subtle expressions. I also remember him empathizing (with his eyes) when Marla cried that she had no friends, no one to talk to except her baby. He knows that aloneness. Eames: "Let e-mail Kev09 & see if he's interested in meeting another discreet married man...I'll make sure you're his type.""And I'll name you Bigfoot" ( I added that paraphrase ;D. I would have loved to have read Eames' online description of Bigfoot's attributes, LOL! Working in Chelsea, I'm sure she knows that the bad boys like. And Kev09 looked like he liked what he saw when he spied Bigfoot twirling those keys. Bullwinkle and now Bigfoot.....poor Goren. Back to the Marla confrontation. I was surprised that Marla didn't insist that Eames, and not Goren, accompany her into the room with the bound teacher & admission b*tch. That's what I would have done. And there goes Eames, off & away, just like Siren Call. Yet this time around, they both realized that Marla had run out of steam. She didn't shoot the two women, merely bound them, so it seemed probable that she wouldn't shoot Goren. At one point, Goren almost grabbed her gun, and then pulled back. Why? He could have easily grabbed it, at least in my & my husband's opinion. Speaking of hubby, he didn't think it was Marla until the end, but had Skip's wife and then the MIL as suspects. He didn't see the clip with the female arm holding the gun, like we all did. That particular promo clip was a bad choice in that respect. Wasn't Jessica Walter great? I haven't seen her work lately, but she's been in television forever. I always remember her in those flaky "Love Boat" episodes. Her looking so old is a sad reminder to me of my own age.
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Post by random on Jul 7, 2008 8:11:45 GMT -5
This episode was fine, but not particularly memorable.
I think that ever since Season 5, CI has become a whodunnit instead of a whydunnit. The elements of the plot were there, but Marla's motive was established in her first scene. There wasn't as much complex layering of her reasons for committing the crime.
I think the reason that the pre school problem in NYC has gotten so bad is that more people are choosing to live in the city these days, and the number of schools isn't rising as rapidly as the toddler population. I think the writers probably experience this personally.
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Post by Patcat on Jul 7, 2008 8:12:58 GMT -5
I think there's an unspoken agreement between Goren and Eames that he handles the hostage situations if he can. An acknowledgement that, yea, she's good at it, but he's better and the odds for everyone are better if he deals with it.
Marla seemed to have less hostility towards men than women. So much of her anger was directed at her mother-in-law as well, so perhaps she felt more comfortable with Goren.
I don't watch SVU or the original very often, so the stories that are repeated among the L&O series aren't familiar to me. One reason I don't watch SVU is that I find Benson and particularly Stabler's reactions far too emotional, unprofessional and unrealistic. Now, admittedly, they're working in a squad where it's almost impossible not to have emotional reactions to their cases. (I'm also not criticizing the actors, who are excellent.) But I find Goren and Eames' subtle and understated (usually) responses more satisfying and realistic.
I think if Goren was alone with Marla he might have grabbed the gun. The hostage's presence kept him from that. I think he feared if Marla started shooting she wouldn't stop.
I can't decide how I feel about Jessica Walter's performance. It seemed a bit too much for me, but perhaps it was the character and not the performance.
Patcat
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misty98
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 61
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Post by misty98 on Jul 7, 2008 8:54:52 GMT -5
"And there goes Eames, off & away, just like Siren Call. Yet this time around, they both realized that Marla had run out of steam..." To me, this time, it made more sense to have Eames stay with the kids. You have a group of three year-olds, just waking up from a nap, and you're trying to herd them out of the room quietly. Who are they more likely to follow? A big burly man, or a petite woman who looks completely non-threatening? Most kids who are taught about "stranger danger" are looking for a menacing man, not a gentle woman. Eames had the better chance of getting the kids out of there quickly, quietly and safely. As far as the confrontation between Goren and Marla, well, I've said it before, and I'll say it again...been there, done that, at least twice already. Even VDO looked a little bored in that scene, IMHO.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jul 7, 2008 9:36:05 GMT -5
I think that ever since Season 5, CI has become a whodunnit instead of a whydunnit... Exactly, Random. The whydunnit -- the criminal intent -- was the distinctive focus of this L&O series. No doubt whatsoever. They also keep coming up with stories about writers. That they are consistently reproducing pale copies of old episodes, or tend to plot stories about people like themselves is -- IMHO -- a tell-tale sign of writer burnout. And that saddens me because this crop has done some really first-rate work on CI in the past. It also annoys me -- and here I beg your indulgence and aim at no one in particular -- that many hardcore fans appear willing to accept lower imaginative standards for a CI episode. The show, its concept, its actors, its New York setting are richer in potential than what we are now getting -- in this showrunner and lead actor one-foot-out-the-door period. I pine for the possibility of a CI show that once was -- that puts me on the edge of my seat, right up until the final five minutes. AL P.S. Here is a quick link to the two-minute replay of "Kissinger:" www.usanetwork.com/series/criminalintent/video/2minreplay.html
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Post by deathroe on Jul 7, 2008 10:41:48 GMT -5
Ohhh--nice catch. You know it felt more like deliberate underplaying to me. Funny thing is, I can't think of a time when I've ever felt like either of them were really and truly phoning something in. That's one thing I really like about them. There is one point in "Rocket Man" where I could swear KE's trying not to laugh, but one can't really blame her if that's the case Again IMHO--the "whydunnits" were much more suspenseful. They kept you guessing more, paradox or not.
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 7, 2008 11:00:03 GMT -5
Eames: "Let e-mail Kev09 & see if he's interested in meeting another discreet married man...I'll make sure you're his type.""And I'll name you Bigfoot" ( I added that paraphrase ;D. I would have loved to have read Eames' online description of Bigfoot's attributes, LOL! Working in Chelsea, I'm sure she knows that the bad boys like. And Kev09 looked like he liked what he saw when he spied Bigfoot twirling those keys. Bullwinkle and now Bigfoot.....poor Goren. DonnaJo, you took the words out of my mouth - I would have loved to have seen the look on Eames face as she was typing out the message. I wonder if a list of other names for him went through her head..... But Bigfoot was perfect - it brings back that whole famous scene about his size 13s (can't tell you what epi it was from - Season 1?) which I'm sure is hard for Eames to forget, too! What a relief this episode was!
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Jul 7, 2008 14:52:33 GMT -5
This was a good one. However, my husband and I were a bit confused by all the different turns in the beginning. I don't know, maybe we were just tired. Anyway, it turned out to be more of an old school LOCI. You guys have covered the good parts, like Bigfoot. That was a hoot.
Maybe I will comment more after I watch it a couple a few more times. I just had major surgery and am kinda tired. Glad to be back. I am looking forward to seeing all the new posts on this one.
Oh, growing up in southern Ohio, and relatives from Ky., not everyone from there has a thick accent.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 7, 2008 16:36:39 GMT -5
That they are consistently reproducing pale copies of old episodes, or tend to plot stories about people like themselves is -- IMHO -- a tell-tale sign of writer burnout. And that saddens me because this crop has done some really first-rate work on CI in the past. It also annoys me -- and here I beg your indulgence and aim at no one in particular -- that many hardcore fans appear willing to accept lower imaginative standards for a CI episode. After eight years, even with new writers and a new showrunner, I can't see how they couldn't help but duplicate plotlines. I know that all of the crime shows, including the various CSI's NCIS, and all three L&W's copy RFTH stories. I don't watch these other shows, but I'm sure the elite pre-school murderer story has been done before. I think some of this season's episodes are among the best. I loved "Smile," "Amends," and especially "Self-Made." I don't know if I am accepting lesser stories and not realizing it - could be. I do know what I don't like, in fact hate, and that is a story that doesn't portray Goren in the way that I know him to be. That loses the essence of this character I know and love. That's why I loved this episodes, it brought the Goren I know back, at least for a little while.
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Post by nwchimom on Jul 7, 2008 16:47:52 GMT -5
Interesting, DonnaJo. A friend commented on my LJ that she was unhappy with the episode because it seemed Goren had lost the empathy he usually shows, even for perps.
I said the perp didn't deserve empathy, because she shot the parents in front of their young children, then left the kids to the mercy of whoever/whatever might happen by. And for what? Because she blamed herself for her son being wait-listed, and she had an overbearing mother-in-law?
But in my friend's opinion, this perp had to be crazy to do what she did, so where was the empathy? I think even if she were crazy, she was unrepentant. The obvious example...Tagman was crazy, but he hated what he did and was sorry. I think Bobby sees a difference between people who have severe mental illness, such as schizophrenics, and those we say "must be crazy to do what they did." The first group isn't responsible for their actions. The second group is able to distinguish right from wrong, and needs to acknowledge their crimes for Bobby to show that empathy.
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Post by dragonsback on Jul 7, 2008 17:25:36 GMT -5
...I don't know if I am accepting lesser stories and not realizing it - could be. I do know what I don't like, in fact hate, and that is a story that doesn't portray Goren in the way that I know him to be. That loses the essence of this character I know and love. That's why I loved this episodes, it brought the Goren I know back, at least for a little while. Interesting, great point, Donna. Pardon me if I take a bit of Annabelle's post about accepting less, and attempt to mesh it with your own. I think I have to agree that we are getting less, and that we are also accepting less, but you've nailed the reason why, Donna, and I've applied boldface and an underscore to your post above, which says it all. How many times have we all written words to the effect of: "There was a glimmer of the old Bobby in this ep! A glimpse of the old Goren! " I continue to read that sentiment over and over and over and over on this and other boards. Gawd, I know I've written it several times. It's like a latter-day Maria Callas concert, when the ageing, beloved diva did a cracked medley of her great operatic roles. Whenever she managed to hit the C above high C, the despairing and loving audience went wild with applause. Glimmers of Classic Goren keep many of us going with this (IMO) broken-down series. Unlike Callas, though, this Voice can be rescued. It just takes will on the part of writers and actors. No more excuses.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 7, 2008 17:29:41 GMT -5
Interesting, DonnaJo. A friend commented on my LJ that she was unhappy with the episode because it seemed Goren had lost the empathy he usually shows, even for perps. I said the perp didn't deserve empathy, because she shot the parents in front of their young children, then left the kids to the mercy of whoever/whatever might happen by. And for what? Because she blamed herself for her son being wait-listed, and she had an overbearing mother-in-law? But in my friend's opinion, this perp had to be crazy to do what she did, so where was the empathy? I think even if she were crazy, she was unrepentant. The obvious example...Tagman was crazy, but he hated what he did and was sorry. I think Bobby sees a difference between people who have severe mental illness, such as schizophrenics, and those we say "must be crazy to do what they did." The first group isn't responsible for their actions. The second group is able to distinguish right from wrong, and needs to acknowledge their crimes for Bobby to show that empathy. Right on target!!!
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