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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 9, 2008 7:51:32 GMT -5
A question occurs to me: is this isolation, this difference from others, why most of us find Goren the character relatable or interesting? Or OTOH do we find him relatable or interesting because he is like all of us in being somewhat isolated, somewhat of a bumbler, especially now? Personally, I always joke that I'm more of a Goren, but I want to be more of an Eames--but I think that all of us find characteristics of both protagonists in ourselves I think women go for Goren because it brings out the "care for the hurt bird" emotion women have. We want to help him....heal him.....then...uh....well you know....... He is a wounded soul. Many women feel needed by someone like that. They are also attracted to his attitude towards women. He is protective, respectful and admirable. The Goren character is written and played to tug on those womanly strings. As far as for the male viewers.....I have no clue.
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Post by Patcat on Jul 9, 2008 8:46:04 GMT -5
Whoa. Lots of cool points.
The right thing, the logical thing for Marla to do would be to put her foot down and get away from the monster-in-law. But I sensed Marla and her husband were financially beholden to mommie dearest. Perhaps Marla didn't realize what a monster her potential mother-in-law was until after the marriage. Perhaps Marla was raised in a family where daughters-in-law were expected to be subservient. Maybe she though her mother-in-law was a good person for Hank. It wouldn't surprise me if Marla had been abused as a child. I'm not excusing her actions, mind you, but I've seen women like Marla. I understood her character. What she did was horrible and she should be held accountable for what she did, but I understand why she did it.
Goren's attractive qualities--Yea, he's definitely a "Wounded soul." I sometimes wonder if the poor guy ever got to put his soul together. And I always related to his role as an outsider. I never felt I belonged to any group whan I was a kid, and spent a lot of time reading.
I don't think it's a huge psychological leap to see Goren's problems with authority. Mr. D'Onofrio, Mr. Balcer, and several people have talked about that. The thing is that he hates bad authority figures who abuse their power and positions, but he also desperately seeks and needs their approval. I think Goren recognizes and tries to deal with the hatred, but I'm not sure he recognizes his need for approval.
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 9, 2008 10:33:48 GMT -5
Perhaps Marla was raised in a family where daughters-in-law were expected to be subservient. Maybe she though her mother-in-law was a good person for Hank. It wouldn't surprise me if Marla had been abused as a child. I'm not excusing her actions, mind you, but I've seen women like Marla. I understood her character. What she did was horrible and she should be held accountable for what she did, but I understand why she did it. Great post, Patcat. Even now, after a repeat viewing, I'm still not sure what made Marla tick, really. She displayed some of what you wrote, but yet her demeanor & attitude during the aria was that of a very determined woman. Very unlike a Nelda, who stayed sweet & malleable (sickeningly so), until the end. When Goren went for the gun, she showed real anger & fortitude. She wasn't giving that thing up. I saw no intimidation on her part in terms of Goren's size or his role as a police officer. And her comment to Eames, "Honey, " I'm a terrific shot." reeked of confidence & sass. Another poster elsewhere hit the nail on the head. This is why ADA Carver was so necessary. His skepticism and "Bring me Armor" attitude would have motivated the Detectives to delve more into Marla (and the other suspects) & her psychological make up. And where o where is Susan 1212? She would be all over that on line/juice bar encounter between Goren & Kev09. We all know what "wide 9 means, don't we Ladies? And Bigfoot? I especially adore the scene where "wide 9" notices "Bigfoot" with the keys at the bar, and gives him that "you look juicy & delicious, come hither " look. That & the aria were by far the best parts of the episode. That & the way Eames says, "Let's email Kev09 - see if he's interested in meeting another discreet married man."
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Post by deathroe on Jul 9, 2008 11:09:46 GMT -5
See, I'm a woman, and while I appreciate his intellect I feel that I would find him extremely exhausting IRL. It is possible to care deeply about someone yet to find them draining, and I am sure that that is at least part of Eames' position. I do not understand why Marla did what she did. On the other hand, people kill over lots of crazy stuff, these days. North Americans live in a society where we are encouraged to put our own wants ahead of all else (This has been D-Roe with your morning cup of sunshine )
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Jul 9, 2008 11:37:40 GMT -5
We all know what "wide 9 means, don't we Ladies? And Bigfoot? Well, I'm probably the only one who doesn't understand either. Could someone please explain?
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 9, 2008 11:49:07 GMT -5
I do not understand why Marla did what she did. On the other hand, people kill over lots of crazy stuff, these days. North Americans live in a society where we are encouraged to put our own wants ahead of all else (This has been D-Roe with your morning cup of sunshine ) I don't get the Marla character - at the start she seemed like the most down to earth (is that suppose to ring warning bells in the LOCI world?). She had serious issues boiling beneath the surface to be so driven in her armed confrontation with Goren at the end. Will she be able to plead insanity? She certainly isn't the manipulator that Kathy in Betrayed was or she would have manipulated her way right out of that house. She was trapped in an impossible situation, pressured to the end of her rope, with a husband that was still tied to Mommy Dearest and without enough financial resources to break away. (and that, boys and girls, is why we stay in school.... she says in her best nasal Mr. Rogers voice.) What would we have done? Goren is becoming well practiced at staring down the barrel of a gun (such a nice job....). As DonnaJo said, as soon as he got that gun, his demeanor changed. He turned away, did the classic Goren forehead rub and and totally lost the pleading, empathetic mask. Back to counselling.............
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jul 9, 2008 12:59:50 GMT -5
We all know what "wide 9 means, don't we Ladies? And Bigfoot? Well, I'm probably the only one who doesn't understand either. Could someone please explain? It's about the size of a man's primary sexual organ. We're referencing the Season One episode "Jones," specifically the interrogation room scene between Goren and a suspected serial killer of petite women. To provoke him into talking, Goren ridicules the suspect's small stature, hands and feet, the latter which (says our Big Bob) is predictive of male organ dimensions. Goren then suddenly raises his leg and slams his own size 13 shoe on the interrrogation table, right in front of the suspect. It's a classic if primitive guy-to-guy intimidation/humilation move. In other words, Bobby's got a big one, both long and wide; we know that by his shoe size. So in the Kev9 e-mail, Alex chooses to identify Goren as Bigfoot. AL
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Jul 9, 2008 13:05:12 GMT -5
I remember that episode :-)
I'd never heard "wide nine" before. And Bigfoot, well, not in this context...
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 9, 2008 13:12:20 GMT -5
We're referencing the Season One episode "Jones," specifically the interrogation room scene between Goren and a suspected serial killer of petite women. To provoke him into talking, Goren ridicules the suspect's small stature, hands and feet, the latter which (says our Big Bob) is predictive of male organ dimensions. Goren then suddenly raises his leg and slams his own size 13 shoe on the interrrogation table, right in front of the suspect. It's a classic if primitive guy-to-guy intimidation/humilation move. In other words, Bobby's got a big one, both long and wide, We know that by his shoe size. So in the Kev9 e-mail, Alex chooses to identify Goren as Bigfoot. AL And as an addition: In Jones, Goren used Eames a bait. In Please note, Eames uses Goren as bait.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jul 9, 2008 13:15:41 GMT -5
I remember that episode :-) I'd never heard "wide nine" before. And Bigfoot, well, not in this context... LO:CI, I can understand why you didn't make the connection. Obviously you are someone who doesn't spend every free moment making YouTube videos that celebrate VDO/Goren's body parts. Nice to meet you. AL
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jul 9, 2008 13:17:59 GMT -5
And as an addition: In Jones, Goren used Eames a bait. In Please note, Eames uses Goren as bait. Very perceptive, QF-CA. I hadn't made that connection. AL
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 9, 2008 14:33:47 GMT -5
And as an addition: In Jones, Goren used Eames a bait. In Please note, Eames uses Goren as bait. Very perceptive, QF-CA. I hadn't made that connection. AL And it's about time she got that opportunity!! Interesting that the foot thing and the bait thing connect these two epis although they didn't reel in the killer with the Goren bait but it eventually led to the catch.
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 9, 2008 14:39:18 GMT -5
Very perceptive, QF-CA. I hadn't made that connection. AL And it's about time she got that opportunity!! Interesting that the foot thing and the bait thing connect these two epis although they didn't reel in the killer with the Goren bait but it eventually led to the catch. I hate it when I think of something else after I've posted. In Jones it was the little thing (petite woman) that made the catch and in Please Note it was the big thing that made the catch. And see me laughing as I typed that!
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Post by outerbankschick on Jul 9, 2008 17:19:34 GMT -5
And it's about time she got that opportunity!! Interesting that the foot thing and the bait thing connect these two epis although they didn't reel in the killer with the Goren bait but it eventually led to the catch. I hate it when I think of something else after I've posted. In Jones it was the little thing (petite woman) that made the catch and in Please Note it was the big thing that made the catch. And see me laughing as I typed that! ROTFL myself! ;D
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Post by outerbankschick on Jul 9, 2008 17:23:50 GMT -5
I do not understand why Marla did what she did. On the other hand, people kill over lots of crazy stuff, these days. North Americans live in a society where we are encouraged to put our own wants ahead of all else (This has been D-Roe with your morning cup of sunshine ) I don't get the Marla character - at the start she seemed like the most down to earth (is that suppose to ring warning bells in the LOCI world?). She had serious issues boiling beneath the surface to be so driven in her armed confrontation with Goren at the end. Will she be able to plead insanity? She certainly isn't the manipulator that Kathy in Betrayed was or she would have manipulated her way right out of that house. She was trapped in an impossible situation, pressured to the end of her rope, with a husband that was still tied to Mommy Dearest and without enough financial resources to break away. (and that, boys and girls, is why we stay in school.... she says in her best nasal Mr. Rogers voice.) What would we have done? Goren is becoming well practiced at staring down the barrel of a gun (such a nice job....). As DonnaJo said, as soon as he got that gun, his demeanor changed. He turned away, did the classic Goren forehead rub and and totally lost the pleading, empathetic mask. Back to counselling............. I watched the aria again and I caught that moment when he changed. Magnificently subtle. You just have to watch his eyes when Marla repeats what he said about her being irreplaceable. Bobby's whole demeanor changes right before your eyes. Vincent never ceases to amaze me when he does this. One change of expression, one twitch of the lip, or quiver of a facial muscle. Any wonder I'm always rewinding my Tivo to catch each tiny change. . . Y'all think I need professional help or what? LOL!
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