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Post by annabelleleigh on Aug 25, 2008 14:23:03 GMT -5
Just for the CI-US site record, here's the link to the "heart-stopping" video clip temporarily withdrawn yesterday from the USA network site: video.usanetwork.com/player/?id=265899#videoid=524161( No celebrity endorsement implied.) At the point of first seeing this I could have used both that Dove cucumber deodorant and a big swig of Smirnoff. ;-) AL
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vixie
Rookie
I smile everytime I see VDO in anything!
Posts: 23
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Post by vixie on Aug 25, 2008 14:29:03 GMT -5
Want to apologize for being a thread hog, but I have to get this all off my blotter in 15 min before I go back to two hours of lesson prep, followed by the re-watch ... o me. Compliments to the writers for keeping me guessing--and relatively captivated-- at 9:37, even with the four-minute spoiler. Just some things I noticed: --first clue (had one not been spoiled) that Gage was the "2nd shooter": when he complains about not being listened to. Per Gage, per "Blind Spot," that's what profilers are supposed to do for killers. --Nicole's "big doe eyes" when Gage kills her=direct setting of N and Mama "Bambi" in parallel. Very nice--I hadn't seen that one even if the writers had. --More parallelism: Goren pushing Declan in the wheelchair=Goren pushing Mama. He's been a caregiver all his life. Poss. why he won't let himself be taken care of (did I ship? Oops ). --Parallelism also seemed (POSSIBLY) to be written in vis a vis the last Logan episodes (or at least, they used flashbacks). I'd have to revisit "Last Rites," though. --Exactly a year since "Brother's Keeper" (Mama Goren's b'day). --Gage, Ross both at Mama's funeral. --Flashbacks were restrained/effective. I predict for this to be a rerun classic that will re-acquaint people with the show. --Junkie brother dead=a classic LOCI kind of a storyline, if you think about it ("Probability"--and, of course, "Grow.") --Gage trying to understand Jo (writing that book) was somewhat redemptive. Jo eating her tongue, though--was--a little too Silence of the Lambs.--Gage's complaints about "getting lost" when Bobby talks. Gage understands his diminishing capacities, but he's likely always been jealous of Bobby's superior intellect. --On a shallow note, this was the first time I liked Rodgers as a blonde. SHe must look better IRL--she has such blue eyes. I thought everybody else looked pretty good, too. --This was the first Eames was hearing of Goren's DNA test??? But she suspected, of course. --Ross calling Rodgers "Elizabeth" and Goren saying "your girlfriend"=whoah. Heh. And the way he holds Ross' eyes in that scene! --Telling that Eames is the one sensitive to the "gaslighting." One just amazing moment when Eames tells Ross "I have a witness." Ostensibly it's Gage she's referring to, but the whole shtick about people who've survived a serial killer being witnesses (which I didn't write down but might later) ... that's about her, Eames. Very nicely played, again--sweet, even. --Loved Eames getting to explain herself to Gage the way she did: all of that, yeah, but not against my partner. Once again, KE is the best thing on tv. --Don't forget that Jo's death frees Eames, too (and Frank's, and Nicole's, I'd argue .... but Jo's death quite obviously frees her former captive in some way). That we get no overt mention of this seems very much in line with Eames' characterization on the show. Let me tell you, she is a wonderful character. --Gage was the devil speaking truth, also about Eames, about how she didn't remind him of his mother and Nicole. I found that whole exchange fascinating. Biggest structural complaint is that, for the whole thing to work, Gage had to have been Goren's confidant. Given the "tit for tat" note, he must have said A LOT; given Gage's retention of all that, Gage must have been obsessing about Goren a LOT. One wonders why he would have confided in Gage, but I suppose it speaks to Goren's humanity. Meanwhile, Gage continued focussed on redeeming himself until the end. Which--and here's someplace else that I think we can give the writers credit for perceptivity--is what has been Goren's issue all this season as well. Redeeming himself. That last scene was certainly touching enough. Biggest gratification to me was how quiet and dignified it all was, even so. And it was sleight of hand, yes, but it also worked for the most part. Here's to Season 8. And to answer Tech Guy's question: yes, I think he is. Given answers, he's being forced to grieve and to move on.
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nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Aug 25, 2008 14:34:33 GMT -5
The writers seemed to want to put any ideas about shipping to rest. After using some vague references over the past year, it is absolutely clear now that G&E do not have a *personal* relationship. Their professional relatiponship seems heading back to where it should be. They have both let the opther down somewhat, and now they can get back to being a good working team. Now I don't see that as being absolutley clear. Now I don't think they have a "romantic" relationship but I have always thought of them as being friends. This was not the first time that Eames didn't know about something in Goren's family. He has always been hurt and embarrassed by his family, and how they behave toward others and towards him. He has always kept those things to himself. He has always seen Eames has having this perfect family and I really believe that he thought she couldn't understand his. Remember how Eames just found out the truth about how his mom had cancer and about his brother last season. She really stuck up for him and went out on a line to protect him. Even Declan saw that Eames cared deeply for him. Someone who didn't have a "personal" relationship with him wouldn't have done as much for Bobby
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vixie
Rookie
I smile everytime I see VDO in anything!
Posts: 23
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Post by vixie on Aug 25, 2008 15:13:33 GMT -5
deathroe - you are a master! How on earth were you able to dissect all the little hints and clues and references the writers put in this script in such a short time? Your "manifesto" is on target and if you don't mind, I'd like to tell some of my other blogger friends about some of the highlights you mentioned. May I???
I'll give props to the writers for this episode, whether or not they had ulterior motives. It was beautifully crafted to keep me on the edge of my seat.
The last scene has insights to what Goren will be like in Season 8. The communication between the "teacher" and the "student" was calm and almost peaceful, even as Bobby's insides were churning and he knew who the mastermind of this scheme was. What I saw was a resigned to the truth Bobby. The civility of the scene was meant:
1) Either as a sign that he appeared to be whipped in the intellect game or
2) as a clue to whether Bobby will cease to have trouble with authority, no longer displaying the fits of temper and disrespect of the past.
What I'm proposing is that Goren will be calm, peaceful and focused, at least in the beginning, of Season 8.
He'll be engaged once again, with a mind clear of most personal issues. He still has the "son of a serial killer" tag to deal with. But, now that all the drama of the previous seasons has been dealt with, Goren and Eames will be "free" to concentrate on doing their job, getting the bad guys.
Bobby will no longer be the bad guy in the room so he should return to being "the smartest guy in the room". (Hated when WL made that other comment.) Eames and Goren can now direct their energy towards a common goal, once again being in "the elite" MCS.
What I hope is that it returns us to the earlier format, the episodes that drew me to watch. Maybe we'll have a Bobby that has those earlier quirks that made us smile or laugh, as we were awed by how much he knew. ( I know the arguments, that no one man can know all he does, but remember, he's a fictional character.)
The shows I loved were the ones where the bad guys were outsmarted, not the other way around. Does anyone think the writers can stop making Goren suffer so much? It was not appealing.
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untitled
Detective
Stuff the Fluff! Save Goren & Eames!
Posts: 274
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Post by untitled on Aug 25, 2008 15:23:56 GMT -5
<---?? Forgive me I have no idea what that abriv means.
I loved the episode! Flawed yes, but fantastic! Nicole - I didn't believe for a second that she was dead until Gage 'confessed' to Bobby. I just hope she is dead for good. Though a tiny bit of me had hoped she and Bobby had one last confrontation. Gage - One thing I have to say that I really didn't like was the portrayal of Gage. I thought for the most part he was too over the top. I immediately thought of Frances Goren as he pushed him in the wheelchair outside of the hospital. I didn't quite understand why he kept insisting on Eames being a suspect - other than to play with her and Bobby's emotions. Though I thought that ending where he says to Bobby that he cut out the garbage in his life and freed him. That was very touching. I wanted to cry. And the best part of the episode which made me forget his cartoonish portrayal through out the rest of episode. On Eames - I loved how Eames didn't believe for a second that Bobby had done it and set out to prove his innocence. I thought part where Ross picks up the paternity test and reads the results was completely unneeded. As Bobby had just confirmed that two seconds before. Loved the elevator scene. A united front - "I"ll push for a full investigation and keep you in the loop." Eames is there for him, whether he sees that or not. On Season 8 - I hope to see Bobby start to heal somewhat from this, though I do hope maybe for more 'middle ground' between old CI and new CI. I do miss the complexity of the old cases, but I love the new character driven aspect. Though I don't enjoy so much meldodrama and the beating of Goren's spirit. Oh and one more thing - I hope to have more...'consistency' between the different partner episodes. Last night I thought it might be interesting to see Goren, Eames and Jeff Goldblum's character (whoever he shall be) interact. I at least hope a nice little send off from the older partners. I can't wait for season 8 to start! With 16 episode season I figured we'd have to wait til January. But the little commercial on usa says November.
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spits
Detective
Posts: 224
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Post by spits on Aug 25, 2008 15:58:21 GMT -5
That was intense - I thought it was a really good episode! Apologies to those of you who also participate in other CI communities as this review is cobbled together from things I've posted already...
I'm glad Nicole is gone, though I wouldn't have minded seeing one last showdown between her and Goren with Eames leading her away in handcuffs. I suppose Declan thought he was 'sparing' Bobby of this and in his own twisted logic, having him not follow the same path that he did with Sebastian. In this, I truly believe Declan thought he was saving Bobby and being the only one who followed through (though God knows all he did was create more grief).
The expressions that the actors portrayed during this episode spoke volumes. I know some people have said that this episode didn't suggest that G/E had a personal relationship (of whatever degree of your choosing), but like nosee I honestly saw it in a completely opposite light. Eames' reaction to the comment about having 'deep feelings' for her partner, the tears in her eyes in Ross' office, her protecting Goren, Goren's reaction to Declan's comment about Eames' capabilities...to me, this all suggests the presence of a personal relationship.
Ross and Rodgers were great in this as well; it was nice to see Rodgers more involved in the storyline.
I'm glad they tied up some of these loose ends. Donny can stay out there all he likes, but here's to a less angst filled season eight!
EDIT:
Agreed!
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Post by deathroe on Aug 25, 2008 19:12:49 GMT -5
Vixie, please feel free. I just like to take notes while I watch I am loving reading everyone's comments. I couldn't single anyone out--they're all so perceptive and interesting.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Aug 25, 2008 19:19:49 GMT -5
I have read everyone's comments and I am glad to see a positive reaction to the show. Personally, I felt it was well-written - except for the part about Rogers telling Ross personal and confidential information about Robert. That was so totally out of character for her. She is such a professional woman, she never would've done that. Unbelievable. He had every right to be angry and if I were him, I would have trashed her morgue too. Just an awful thing for her to do. I can see the need for Ross to know to build his case against Robert, but he should have asked Robert, not Rogers.
The acting was superb, Vincent was sublime and Kathryn was strong and let Eames show more emotion than usual. But she has been doing that more lately and I love it. Leslie Hendrix did a great job realizing Roger's wrongdoing and letting Goren go on with his destructive rage. Eames unfailing loyalty to Robert was the best part for me. G & E were really in sync. She pulled those records to prove Ross wrong and to clear Robert, not doubting for a second that she would on both counts. She shored up Bobby and calmed him down. She was the best friend and partner anyone could be to him.
In the end, my heart was broken for Robert. So much pain for him. So much to deal with. I was numb for a while and then the tears came. I love this Robert Goren so much, I wish I could help him. But I have no doubt Eames will help him not only survive, but also grow and heal. I am not a shipper, but these two will always be connected as friends and partners. I look forward to S8.
A few other comments:
The B & B seemed to be the same house as Avery's parents in Maine, in "Betrayed".
Vincent's weight is none of our business.
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Post by deathroe on Aug 25, 2008 19:42:05 GMT -5
(1) I love Rodgers too much not to defend her. What about the rule that medical professionals have, that they can "betray" a confidence if the patient seems likely to harm himself or another? Clearly Goren's not a patient, but perhaps she genuinely felt that he was in a bad place, that he was a danger to himself. She seems to have been very sympathetic to E and G's struggles in the past (the time Frank didn't die in "Brother's Keeper" ... "I'm sorry about your husband. I never knew.")
(2) Romantic or not, to me the way that KE and VDO play their characters' relationship is as deep and moving as anything I've seen on tv. That last exchange between Goren and Gage clinched it.
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Post by ragincajun on Aug 25, 2008 19:56:27 GMT -5
I am probably the only one who feels some sympathy for Declan, a brillant man, losing his mind, I think he really thought in some way he was helping Bobby. I like the fact and dislike the fact, that he told Bobby, that his family failed him, he didn't fail them. Nobody has ever told him that, not even Eames. He really needed to hear that, but why didn't someone close to him, bring that up? I know Declan is a murdered, but who will really suffer for those deaths? Frank will no longer use people for his own demise, he was going to eventually kill himself and maybe others around him. Nicole also, she would never get any better.
Runs and hides.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Aug 25, 2008 20:15:11 GMT -5
(1) I love Rodgers too much not to defend her. What about the rule that medical professionals have, that they can "betray" a confidence if the patient seems likely to harm himself or another? Clearly Goren's not a patient, but perhaps she genuinely felt that he was in a bad place, that he was a danger to himself. She seems to have been very sympathetic to E and G's struggles in the past (the time Frank didn't die in "Brother's Keeper" ... "I'm sorry about your husband. I never knew.") (2) Romantic or not, to me the way that KE and VDO play their characters' relationship is as deep and moving as anything I've seen on tv. That last exchange between Goren and Gage clinched it. 1.)I love Rogers too! That's why I am so upset that the writer's would make her do that! We could discuss semantics, but it felt so wrong. And she knew it was wrong. I think she feels great remorse for doing that and I hope Robert forgives her. She is an important character, one who usually is professional and caring in her own way - even though "there is a reason" she "works with dead people." 2.) I agree. (Can't say it any better than you did!)
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Post by Moonbeam on Aug 25, 2008 21:02:49 GMT -5
I think I know what happened between Phoenix and Pittsfield. G/E kept running into Debra Messing and she delayed their arrival. ;D
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Post by outerbankschick on Aug 25, 2008 21:38:53 GMT -5
After a second viewing, I'm loving it even more. Even at the first viewing, I had Declan pegged the moment he suggested to Bobby that Nicole had a partner. Talk about being shell-shocked! I was completely stunned by that one!
Another parallel with "Endgame". Bobby tells Declan he wasn't afraid of the DNA test. He is fierce in his anger toward Ross that the Captain would even think he could be a killer. And in "Endgame", even while he's got his hands around Brady's throat, and Brady is goading him and saying "Go ahead. You've got it in you!", Bobby is in full denial of this. He lets go of Brady and spins away crying out "No I don't!".
The acting here was brilliant by all involved. And Alex only proved how deeply she cares about Bobby by resolutely sticking by him. The very thought that Ross would dare think Bobby was responsible for the murders upset her. I loved the look she gave Ross when he told her to clear him. Oh that look! Way to go KE! The way her eyes widened and her chin shot up in the air. She silently said to him, "You know what? I will! And you can go to hell!" (At least, that's what I heard.)
Nice parallel to "Purgatory" with the tables being turned and Bobby being "out of the loop", and also the fact that during their walk, after he went off in the exam room, he called her "Detective" in the same tone she once used with him. I liked, too, that Alex didn't even flinch. She told him about the life insurance policy and the understanding in her eyes was evident. She knew he was innocent and that he didn't even know about the insurance.
I really do think Rodgers (Elizabeth - nice easter egg. I never knew that was her first name) was wrong to tell Ross what she did. Even after reading the other comments and watching it again, I think she should simply have told him that he needed to ask Bobby himself. What Bobby said to her in the exam room was that she had promised him it would be confidential. So breaking that promise, and especially sharing it with Ross (because one could argue a clear conflict of interest there) was poor judgement on her part. I do still think he needs to apolgize to her though.
He was building up to that explosion throughout the whole episode and even letting just a bit of it out in Ross' office wasn't enough to purge him. He was completely shocked by the events that were happening too fast for him to keep up, and then to be thrown into a tailspin by finding out his own fellow detectives were investigating him, plus the betrayal of trust. BOOM! There goes the volcano. And nicely done by VDO. Bobby was absolutely shaking with rage, even after Alex told him they should take a walk.
Declan's reasons, as have been stated here, were really self-serving, but I did feel that there was a real touch of sincerity there, too. That whole aria was just captivating. Bobby went from being shocked to angry to hurt to angry and back to hurt again. Just watching Vincent's face during that scene is amazing. And when Declan told him that Nicole said Bobby was the only man she ever loved, I thought Bobby looked pained and very nearly horrified. Like he needed to hear that! Eeeee!
I felt a little sorry for old Dec, too, losing his mind and then turning into a killer in a twisted attempt to draw Bobby closer to him. To, in fact, save the only "son" he would ever have. The irony, to me, is that Declan spent his life tracking down killers. In the end, he became one. And he not only became one, but he had the forethought and the knowhow to plan and execute the murders in a way that made it confusing to figure out just who had done it. It looked one way, then another. And he alternately set Bobby up himself, to get him back for accusing him of kidnapping Alex, and then confessed, to redeem Bobby and himself.
One minor bone to pick, as someone else stated. When Frank mentioned it was his mother's birthday I was like, "No, see, last year, Mom's birthday was in the middle of winter!". They should have used the anniversary of her death as the catalyst here, not her birthday. Though it was a nice touch to see the gravestone and know how old she was when she died. Makes timelines easier to figure out.
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Post by quietfireca on Aug 25, 2008 21:58:46 GMT -5
I am probably the only one who feels some sympathy for Declan, a brillant man, losing his mind, I think he really thought in some way he was helping Bobby. I like the fact and dislike the fact, that he told Bobby, that his family failed him, he didn't fail them. Nobody has ever told him that, not even Eames. He really needed to hear that, but why didn't someone close to him, bring that up? No, ragin, you're not the only one who feels for Declan. He was horrible (absolutely) and he was funny (providing the only relief in an episode it will take me a long time to recover from) and he was tragic. Yes, he gave Goren what he needed to hear and it breaks my heart that Goren said "thanks" with a tiny little curve of a smile beginning, and then Gage says "like I did for Jo". I've changed my mind - that wasn't shoving the knife deeper, it was twisting it. That aria is well worth playing and replaying just to try to figure out when Goren was allowing Gage to lead him, being led by him and when he was leading. It is heaped full of good stuff! Those two actors were smokin' * *as in superb, not hot!!
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Post by outerbankschick on Aug 25, 2008 22:32:50 GMT -5
Another interesting parallel. In the teaser, Bobby is standing at the kitchen counter, near the sink, eating, while he looks through his mother's scrapbook. In "Mad Hops", Bobby pegged Coach Powell as eating over the sink while watching the TV on the cluttered table. He's so terribly lonely. Going to cry now.
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