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Post by Techguy on Mar 27, 2007 20:48:43 GMT -5
I'm game Patcat. I think I saw this a few years ago with Mrs. T, and if it's the movie I'm thinking of, exasperating is too kind a description. But I have to find it and watch again to refresh my memory.
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Post by gibbsfandan on Mar 27, 2007 22:52:10 GMT -5
Patcat, I meant to respond to your and Metella's posts earlier, since I indicated an interest. There's a lot to think about in what you've both said, and I'll also be interested in reading Techguy's take.
Basically, I don't think my own interpretation is much different. Gavin and George both show themselves to be selfish people, weak in different ways, willing to take advantage of those around them to get what they want. (When she encounters George at the end, the look on Gavin's widow's face shows clearly that she knew about the affair all along.)
I didn't realize that the movie is based on a book, but now I'm also wondering about the direction in which the author went with all the main themes. My gut is that Metella is right about how both characters are intended to be equally sympathetic (or equally exasperating/disappointing). I wonder now if that's how the author wrote it, but the screenplay was changed to make the woman be more selfish and freedom-seeking. Or not. Guess we won't know unless someone reads the book and reviews it in comparison/contrast with the movie.
[ETA: This sucks. I've just done some looking for the novel Salt On Our Skin, and even on my favorite discount-book site, the lowest price I found was $65 US, shipped from Australia. B&N and Amazon had prices tending more toward $90-100. The scalpers win again, dammitall. Will check with the somewhat incompetent local library.]
The movie does start with a basic mismatch in acting ability between Greta Scacchi and VDO. Still, I felt that Ms. Scacchi was competent, and that the screenplay failed in giving George just as much depth as Gavin, because I just don't think she's as superficial as she often comes across.
Like Techguy, I need to rewatch when time permits, since my memory of much of the film is a bit sketchy. However, one thing I do remember well is that I felt more sympathy for George than did my wife, and it all had to do with historical perspectives on feminism. I'm not saying that less than optimal societal circumstances excuse personal misconduct; but post-WWII France was ripe for a strong feminist movement, and apparently George got completely swept up in it.
My speculation is that George, who was already elitist, used Simone de Beauvoir's writings (and maybe those of Sartre and Camus as well, e.g.) to justify pursuing somewhat immoral or amoral goals in life. From what I understand, this behavior might not be especially atypical for a French intellectual — and apologies if I'm wrong about that. (No judgment intended; just an observation.) In any case, again, George's attitude is not right, but shifting positions and preexisting attitudes among her French peers might have blinded her to that.
George is not justified in using Gavin both for amorous purposes and to meet some need in her psyche, which I would guess resulted from her knowledge of the emptiness of some parts of her life. However, I fault Gavin more for allowing himself to be used. Given the context of the society he was raised in, with sexual mores that likely were considerably stricter, he should have ended the relationship with George when he chose to go ahead and marry the girl to whom he was already engaged — and to whom he'd already been unfaithful.
If Gavin had been a woman, there likely would've been hell to pay when the infidelity finally came to light; and this is where my anger at sexual double standards comes in. It's hard to imagine the initial sexual interaction being dealt with so lightly had Gavin been the local female, with George as the mostly foreign male. As well, if George (Georgia? Georgetta? changes things a bit) had been the female member of a Scots fishing community, I think a lot of people would have been much less sympathetic to her unwillingness to change herself to fit someone else's mold, especially since she'd already "given herself" to him sexually. This is inherently unfair, and offends my notions of justice.
George was elitist — an attitude I abhor — and unreasonable for wanting to shape Gavin into her ideal mate. Gavin lacked character in eventually accepting George however he could get her, and for preferring her to his betrothed from the start. So, there's plenty of blame to go around; but this time, my sympathies and my disappointment are about equally divided.
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Post by Techguy on Mar 28, 2007 0:58:56 GMT -5
Gibbsfandan, the price you gave for the book version is a bargain compared to Amazon--the prices range from $80-$135! I paid approximately the upper end price for an entire season of NHL Center Ice!
That shows where my priorities are. But I have digressed.
Anyway, like you, my memories of the movie are rather sketchy so I definitely need to view it again. But your comments have helped tweak my recollections somewhat, as I recall being about equally disappointed and disgusted with both George and Gavin. I don't recall any feminist characteristics in George; as a matter of fact, I thought she was anti-feminist for how she used people and her physical assets to achieve success and position. And I totally disagree with how Gavin continues to cheat on his wife and seek out George despite the reprehensible way George treats him and regards his fisherman ways and lifestyle.
I also think Gavin's wife knew about her husband's affair, and don't comprehend how she lived with that knowledge for the duration of their marriage, or what would have motivated her to give George a last message from Gavin. IIRC, George shows up at Gavin's funeral, which is a pretty brazen and ballsy thing to do with the widow and all the townsfolk there. But as I said, I have to watch again to refresh my memory and if I see George and Gavin, and their actions and motives, any differently.
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Post by Patcat on Mar 28, 2007 9:17:53 GMT -5
H-m-m. I don't think that Gavin seeks out George--I think she seeks him out, which is another strike against her in my book. The only time I see him pursuing her is when he visits her in Paris before his marriage.
I agree that Gavin's wife knew about the affair, and while I don't excuse her actions, I think I understand them. Gavin does appear to be a kind man and a successful one; he seems to love his children; he appears to be a good husband in every other way. So, his wife might have reasoned that if the affair was what she had to put up with, she'd put up with it. Women have stayed with men who do far worse.
Patcat
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Post by Techguy on Mar 29, 2007 14:32:44 GMT -5
As I indicated earlier, my memories of this movie are sketchy. If it's totally one-sided, that it's George seeking Gavin, then I have to question why he continues to respond, given how she's hurt him.
I'm also not clear as to why Gavin's wife would give George a last message from Gavin. I'll have to watch the movie again, to be more accurate as to what I saw and what I think is going on with the characters.
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Post by gibbsfandan on Mar 30, 2007 0:45:06 GMT -5
I agree that Gavin's wife knew about the affair, and while I don't excuse her actions, I think I understand them. Gavin does appear to be a kind man and a successful one; he seems to love his children; he appears to be a good husband in every other way. So, his wife might have reasoned that if the affair was what she had to put up with, she'd put up with it. Women have stayed with men who do far worse. Patcat Yes indeed, women have stayed with men who do far worse; and I think that's the type of thing that gives me some sympathy for George, no matter how much I ultimately dislike her. I do think that she uses feminism as a cloak for her selfishness. Still, I think she truly believes in the principles of feminism; and in that regard, more power to her and to anyone who has ever helped women get out from under burdens they shouldn't have to bear, and to cast off unjust constraints. (And kudos to the women who take care of these matters themselves, within the law — or by getting the laws changed.) I had forgotten that Gavin appears to be a good husband overall. Forgiveness of occasional infidelity doesn't seem like too high a price to pay (for either a wife or a husband) in keeping a well-functioning family together, if we assume that's how Gavin's family could be described. It does take some gall for a lover to appear at a family funeral. In George's case, apparently she had to cling one last time (as I suppose lovers often do). Also, it would seem necessary for dramatic purposes for Gavin's widow to have been the one to pass on the message. Her expression nails George pretty well.
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Post by Patcat on Mar 30, 2007 8:32:18 GMT -5
We never see George actually having to fight for her principals as a feminist--she's never challenged by her students or other faculty members. Perhaps if we'd seen her actually struggle with her commitments to her son versus her career or if her divorce from her husband involved his trying to keep her from her career it would be possible to view her more sympathetically. As it is, George seems to get everything handed to her on a silver platter.
Patcat
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Post by gibbsfandan on Mar 30, 2007 22:56:49 GMT -5
True. Well, everything except Gavin's undivided attention once she'd spurned him; and her wanting something (or someone) she now can't have makes her seem like an overaged spoiled child.
I wonder now how she would have acquitted herself if she'd had to fight for academic position, etc., as you've brought up. It seems likely that that would have happened, but then the film gives us no basis for constructing any solid scenarios to fill in those gaps.
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Post by ragincajun on Apr 9, 2007 16:20:23 GMT -5
I agree George was a snob. George did seek out Gavin except for the time in Paris before he got married, to ask George to marry him. Also I think George says he came back to her 5 years after his son got into his accident. But the rest of the times it was George, but George wrote him a letter and just happen to see him in London,(a friend just happen to have a free ticket) but Gavin called and said he wanted to see her. So he is just as guilty. Kinda made me mad about the comments about his wife not noticing his tan, and not be suspicious. Also giving another woman a sealed note from your husband, but she could have read it and put it in another envelop, but why give it to her, unless she is afraid he would comeback to haunt her. I just hope Josey had a man on the side too.
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