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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 7, 2010 20:18:56 GMT -5
Yes, and he totally did not understand what she meant. When he said, "There's no job too tough for you.", he meant it. He thought she wasn't sure if she was up for the job. Little did he know what she was planning to do...
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Post by quietfireca on Apr 7, 2010 20:36:10 GMT -5
Yes, and he totally did not understand what she meant. When he said, "There's no job too tough for you.", he meant it. He thought she wasn't sure if she was up for the job. Little did he know what she was planning to do... I'm having a really hard time analysing this one - you're right again. I guess she threw that Golden Apple right back at them like it was a hot potato when she realized she'd be selling her soul to the devil to keep that job. Hey, how's that for cliches MJ? roflol!
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 7, 2010 20:52:00 GMT -5
Yes, I believe she made the decision while she was still in the Chief's office. And sold her soul...yes, I can see her feeling like that. Nice cliche, there.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 8, 2010 8:16:37 GMT -5
Oh, this thing has plot holes a Somali pirate ship could sail through. The writing for the characters of Nichols, Goren and Eames was good, though.
I think Bobby expected to be kidnapped or killed, he just didn't know by whom. It was part of his quest to find out who killed his captain (who, I might say, I'm not sure deserved such devotion. I'm still torn about Ross.)
I've never entirely accepted Bobby's treatment by the Brass. A good union rep would've offered him a good defense.
The status of the Bobby/Alex relationship has always been ambiguous, and I was pleased that this story held to that.
Like AL, I feel this has been a bumpy, stormy ride. I thank Mr. D'Onofrio and Ms. Erbe and the writers for it. The highs were great and the lows weren't all that bad.
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 8, 2010 8:25:39 GMT -5
OK......I've replayed the FBI/Goren encounter. It does sound as if Goren will be working with the woman from the FBI, but just to finish up the work that Ross was doing. Goren: "There's no way you can imagine me being useful to you?" FBI Lady: "That would be asking for a very high margin of trust."..... "Whatever happens, you're gonna have problems with your own kind. And even if you help us, when those eggs hit the police fan, there's nothing we can do for you."
As we learn, those eggs hit well before Goren goes off to Puntland (or whatever). If the FBI half expected Goren to get fired for what he is doing with them, than its all good. At least he's got something to do, something for the greater good, for the next few months. Then, who knows? This is how I choose to interpret the ending. It explains why Bobby isn't all that upset with being fired. And I do believe, in spite of his off hand "see ya around", that he and Alex will stay friends. Actions speak louder than words. That kiss and hug proved that
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Post by tektryk on Apr 8, 2010 16:49:54 GMT -5
Poorly written episode. Sister at the end goes from a cold and calculating shadow behind the throne to the whistleblower in the 30 seconds flat. Ridiculous.
Also, is it just me or is this the only Law & Order I can ever remember that didn't have the Dun Dun sound in between the location transitions. Perhaps my TV went out intermittently ever time it happened, but the exclusion of that sound really upset me.
I really hope this show picks up in quality quickly. I wanted to turn it off almost 30 minutes into the episode. Such a brilliant first part that simply falls flat when it comes time to tie it all together.
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untitled
Detective
Stuff the Fluff! Save Goren & Eames!
Posts: 274
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Post by untitled on Apr 8, 2010 23:53:45 GMT -5
I'm confused. Goren is fired for getting physical with a perp. Something that Elliot Stabler does to every rapist/child molester he encounters during an investigation. Yet Goren is fired by the same C of D's. Is that what happened? - It was more than that. The chief of D's had been gunning for it and that was just the straw that broke the camels back. His shove of the perp got him suspended. But that and his unauthorized investigations were what ultimately got him fired. As we all know the Chief of D's doesn't like Goren and wanted him out - this was his chance to get rid of him. Besides that Goren doesn't play politics - he is a true cop, he goes for the truth and justice no matter what. And that's something that scared the Chief - because it meant he was capable of anything. Was Goren offered an opportunity to work with the FBI on this arms plan? I couldn't tell if the FBI chick admired Goren or thought he was a nut job. - A little bit of both I think. The FBI wanted their guy, they wanted their case no matter what, even if it meant getting Goren to release Hassan. I can't see Goren working for the FBI permanently, in CI verse the FBI is even more convoluted than the Brass. The only thing I see is Goren helped the FBI by releasing Hassan for Ross. I think that's the extent of it. OOh I get it! The FBI set Goren up to help them! I just got it. Convoluted. They set him on their tracks planting clues that would lead him ultimately to them - so they would hold something against him so then he would help them in their investigation! Though...I don't know how Goren not knowing the FBI kidnapped him would = them having grounds to commit him to a mental hospital? Even if he forced himself into a psych ward, in order to investigate it. Doesn't make sense to me. But in the end they didn't have to force him into their investigation, he did it for Ross. Eames fires Goren as the temp Captain, and then resigns from the NYPD? That's insane. - Hot and cold. Yes. But to me it makes sense. The way I see it - Eames fires Goren to protect him. And quits because staying there after she fired her partner of nearly 10 years would have meant that she handed the brass her soul. And it wouldn't have stopped there, and she knew that. She was protecting him one last time - something she did often and something I think - as hard as it was for her. She had to do it. Other wise they were going to drag him through the mud. ' "Either that or they drag you to some hearing. And I thought that this might be..." "Kinder, Gentler..." "Something Like that." If she didn't do it - it would have been out of her hands and who knows what could have happened to him. At least she could have controlled it. Just like the earlier when she refused to investigate Goren for Yan van Decker. And Nichols came to Eames and said for them to investigate Goren so the investigation wouldn't go to the FBI. I think - part of the reason why the Chief had Eames fire Goren was a test. To see if she could handle the job w/o letting her personal feelings about her detectives get in the way. What a test! She only did it on her terms. I really admire Eames for doing what she did. I would never in a million years have the guts to do something like that. If she intended to quit, why not tell him after the fact? Or did she quit on the spur of the moment? - I think she made the decision to quit as soon as she as she knew she had to fire Goren. She hints at it. When Goren says congrats to her. She responds with: "It's not for long." I don't expect we'll ever see him (or Eames) featured in a new CI episode. - I completely agree. I think a lot of that was just to let the Goren fans down easier. And for perhaps get them to watch after he left. I will miss Goren & Eames, and I can't watch CI anymore. Goren & Eames were the reason I watched the show - their relationship intrigued me. How very much opposite they were and yet, they were the best team. And how much they meant to each other. What shocked me was that Goren initiated the physical contact. It reinforces to me that Goren is the "female" character. And Alex was the man in that scene. Doing the tough job because it was the right thing to do and then walking away (hopefully from just the job). - Actually I've always seen them like that. Goren was always more emotional, or at least showed it more. Where's Eames held her emotions back, didn't express them as often as Goren did. Eames detached her self more, Goren dove head first into the cases.
I've got to say, I've had mixed feelings about this episode. It was too much packed into such a small time slot. Too convoluted - We didn't need guns and explosions and subterfuge to make a bang for Goren, Eames & Ross' exit. I would have preferred something more intimate to get a better ending. I could have cared less about the case in this episode, the only thing to me that felt real was Goren, Eames & Nichols. Goren & Eames seemed much more in Character in the second half as opposed to the first half. Walon Green had them doing some bizarre stuff that didn't make any sense to the characters. Like stealing Ross's hard drive. It kind of pissed me off - this is their exit episode and the writer doesn't know the characters. One thing that doesn't make sense to me... The FBI Agent who went undercover to check Hassan's weapons. Finds the tracking gps' planted by the FBI for Hassan. He's also the one who 'kidnapped' Goren. Goren - Nichols "Hassan hired a technical expert to sweep and find them, but the expert was an FBI undercover." My question is...Is this man doing what he's supposed to do for the FBI by finding the GPS devices or did he jump ship and join Hassan? And I do believe, in spite of his off hand "see ya around", that he and Alex will stay friends. Actions speak louder than words. That kiss and hug proved that - As do I. I believe that they mean too much to each other to not keep in touch. Eames quitting proves it too.
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Post by alliehalliwell on Apr 9, 2010 0:07:35 GMT -5
My two scents from the clip I saw on Youtube - it was the end few minutes. I watched it and had a 'WTF' moment. Seriously, that ending was disappointing. I mean, I'm no professional writer but there are so many ways that they could have added to that or made it better. Firstly, to have one character get dumped on for 8 years...just to have his last moments, he gets NOTHER load of crap dumped on him? Come on, that's terrible. Secondly, there were few 'personal' details in here. I mean, I did like the G/E hug even though it was awkward, but I would have liked Goren to say something like "well, I knew this would happen eventually, I have backup plans..." or SOMETHING. After I watched the clip (yes, I'm just judging based on that ONE clip...) I was not only thinking of Goren's sh*tty life with his family, and how he now didn't even have work and wouldn't see his good friend Eames very often...but now he doesn't get a pension and 'cause of his age he'll probably be stuck in the whole rut of finding work, 'cause people his age are now experiencing 'ageism' and less likely to get hired. Sorry, I know people his age and highly educated who are having difficulty finding work...probably why I wish he would have commented about having a backup plan if ever fired from the police department. They should have had a little couple lines - Goren telling her something like 'we still on for the baseball game' or 'see you at Thanksgiving' or 'call me later, we'll grab a drink'. Or something. I would have liked to have seen a reference to them hanging outside of work and still being close friends after this. Yeah, I really wish Goren would have been able to have some hope and give us some hope. It just ended up making me feel...bad. As for Eames, it made me feel equally awful 'cause I was hoping that at least one of them would have a good ending but we don't know what's going to happen with her. This just sucked. I'm sorry, hopefully when I watch the whole episode I won't hate it as much, but this end scene is making me skeptical that I'll like it. ...Maybe I shouldn't have watched or read the spoilers. Ya think?
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Post by Patcat on Apr 9, 2010 9:42:59 GMT -5
There's a lot of factors against Goren working for the FBI: He's annoyed (at least) the Bureau several times, beginning with his investigation of John Hammond in THE INSIDER. Goren hates hierarchies and procedures--the FBI is all about this, at least in the L&O world. And I suspect Goren is viewed with suspicion by the Bureau because of his association with Declan Gage.
In my world, I see Goren and Eames joining Deakins in a security/private investigation firm.
Patcat
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Post by Moonbeam on Apr 9, 2010 9:47:49 GMT -5
DAMN IT! THIS EPISODE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT GOREN AND EAMES! Sorry for yelling, but come on. Even Logan got his own episode. Hell, Deakins got a better (or at least a more original, consistant) send off than the two characters that made the show what it was. Yeah, yeah I know. Pretty savvey for USA. I suppose I won't miss them as much now. Weren't the weapons stored on Staten Island? It looks like Goren is sifting through the rubble left by the fired weapon. But now it's supposed to be somewhere east of Bayonne? Wouldn't the guard notice the explosion? I need to go back and watch part 1 because I could swear Hassan's sister mentions the gps system on the weapons. Doesn't she ask Hassan if he'll deactivate them? What was the point of the blonde girlfriend? They found DNA from Hassan's father under van Dekkers nails. What? van Dekker played with the cremated remains? Some silliness... Stevens: "What's wrong with this picture?" Moonbeam: "Goren and Eames aren't in it!" Eames: "You're the best..." Moonbeam: "Paging Carly Simon.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 9, 2010 14:00:21 GMT -5
Also, is it just me or is this the only Law & Order I can ever remember that didn't have the Dun Dun sound in between the location transitions. Perhaps my TV went out intermittently ever time it happened, but the exclusion of that sound really upset me. Criminal Intent hasn't had the "Dun Dun" sounds since the start of Season 6. Also no location/time cards. "Loyalty" is the first episode since the Season 5 finale to have the cards. I'm glad they have at least brought those back. Great comments and observations, untitled. I'm sure my desire to believe that Goren will be employed by the FBI is mere wishful thinking. But as Patcat mentioned, what about Goren's PBA union rep? I mean, NYPD cops have murdered people, taken bribes.... and haven't been fired just like that. I wish Goren would get himself a good lawyer and fight this travesty.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 9, 2010 14:44:25 GMT -5
He (and Eames) could fight, but they won't. They're not that kind of people. And they have Jimmy Deakins' example to follow.
Maybe Goren will write his memoirs? That should scare a lot of people. (g)
Patcat
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Post by Patcat on Apr 9, 2010 14:50:34 GMT -5
Just a question gnawing at me--Does anyone think Goren is in any way responsible for Ross' death?
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 9, 2010 18:10:14 GMT -5
I don't think so, Patcat. The bad guys knew about Ross and the FBI lady BEFORE,Goren's visit to the airplane hangar. I think Ross would have been killed even if Goren had never visited the hangar.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 9, 2010 18:26:43 GMT -5
I agree, DJ. Ross's identity was already compromised by someone who was spying for Hassan. The scene of someone off-camera taking pictures of him with the FBI agent came before the investigation.
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