|
Post by Observer2 on Apr 21, 2010 16:58:42 GMT -5
"In my world, I see Goren and Eames joining Deakins in a security/private investigation firm."
-- Patcat
Thankyou for that image, Patcat. It beats the hell out of any image left in the mind by the ending the writers gave us.
I know I haven't been around in a while... A combination of little time available to spend online and the fact that once Balcer left I found that I couldn't count on the writing to stay true to the characters as Balcer had established them. I wouldn't have minded the deeper delving into personal realms -- I enjoyed that when the writers kept it in character. It was the drifting that made it hard for me to stay engaged enough to want to write about it.
I found Part 1 satisfying in many ways, and I hoped Part 2 would pull the plot threads together and at the same time provide a satisfying exit for Goren and Eames. No such luck.
It seemed the writers had little sense of the characters, and cared about them even less. All they cared about was getting rid of Goren and Eames while aranging to give the fans enough emotional bits to keep them pacified.
And, in the writers' minds that seems to have meant coming up with the most EXTREME emotional bit they could dream up (short of something that would have enraged the fans, like killing one of them off), no matter how they had to stretch and contort things to achieve it. Eames firing Goren... Yup, you can't get much more emotional than that!
I thought I had seen the limit a while back when someone came up with the amazingly dramatic image of Goren and Eames pointing guns at each other, and the headwriter allowed them to set up the most ridiculous scenario to make it happen -- a crime boss stupid enough to order Goren to kill the guy right there under those circumstances would never have made it to that point in the first place! But even that pales next to the contrived maneuvering to arrange for the uber-emotional moment they came up with, of Eames firing Goren. Someone needs to hire a decent editor for these guys -- they write like the kind of self-indulgent fans who give fanfiction a bad name.
The actors, as has been mentioned, are not to blame. They should be commended for turning contrived shlock into moving vignettes.
The one moment that I think has had less mention here than it deserves was when Eames, career police officer from a family of police officers, had that singular honor turned to bitter ashes. Whatever else you say about this ep, Erbe showed class and depth, giving much more than the writing deserved.
|
|
untitled
Detective
Stuff the Fluff! Save Goren & Eames!
Posts: 274
|
Post by untitled on Apr 21, 2010 18:38:42 GMT -5
In my world, I see Goren and Eames joining Deakins in a security/private investigation firm. - I could see them always as Goren & Eames together as private investigators. Whatever else you say about this ep, Erbe showed class and depth, giving much more than the writing deserved. - I completely agree. The ever underrated KE did an excellent job in this one.
|
|
|
Post by alliehalliwell on Apr 21, 2010 18:39:56 GMT -5
But even that pales next to the contrived maneuvering to arrange for the uber-emotional moment they came up with, of Eames firing Goren. Someone needs to hire a decent editor for these guys -- they write like the kind of self-indulgent fans who give fanfiction a bad name. Yeah, that's kind of how I've felt about some of the episodes in the last year or so. Though I liked Bobby going undercover at the prison - I now feel that the introduction of Donny was simply ploy to draw more viewers - the so-called promise of the creators/writers about bringing in a Donny story line was apparently a lie so he was just there to cause drama. I hate when things happen in shows purely for drama. Drama+good story+consistency=greatness (like many of the older episodes)....but yeah, reading how the she show ended (and seeing the final scene clip on Youtube) makes me think the writers could care less about the integrity of the writing and only care about Drama. Hopefully I will get proven wrong but we'll see... If I wanted to see mindless drama I'd watch Gossip Girl or Beverly Hills 90210 (which I'm proud to say - I don't). As to the 'fanfiction' bit I feel a lot of fans out there have come up with cool stories that are both interesting, hold consistency to the history of the characters and plot as well as being engaging. It's disappointing as LOCI writers are supposed to be professionals.
|
|
|
Post by outerbankschick on Apr 21, 2010 21:40:56 GMT -5
Why they didn't have Walon Green write both parts, I'll never understand.
And I have said it before and I'll say it again...writing this sudden "promotion" in for Eames, when we never heard even ONE word about her being a Sgt., much less an Lt. - lazy writing. It was put there for no other reason than to cause emotional trauma and pave the way for both characters to be written out without any real thought.
Deus ex machina to the one hundredth power.
|
|
|
Post by Observer2 on Apr 22, 2010 0:20:41 GMT -5
"As to the 'fanfiction' bit I feel a lot of fans out there have come up with cool stories that are both interesting, hold consistency to the history of the characters and plot as well as being engaging. It's disappointing as LOCI writers are supposed to be professionals."
-- alliehalliwell
Yeah, that's why I specified that they were like the kind of fan writers who give the rest of us a bad name (yes, I write fanfic from time to time -- hopefully in a more self-disciplined way than the examples I mentioned!).
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Apr 22, 2010 8:29:59 GMT -5
Good to see you again, Observer2, and to read your comments again. Hope you'll still come around here.
The more I think about the ending for Goren and Eames, the more I dislike it. Although, to be far, I found Goren and Eames' behavior throughout this overly plotted and dramatic story to be true to their characters.
But...I still have some trouble with the idea of Goren doing all of this for Ross, or just for Ross. Is he also on this crusade because this is what he does, because of loyalty to his captain? Or is it because Eames thinks Ross is worth it?
Patcat
|
|
meggyd
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 112
|
Post by meggyd on Jun 20, 2010 3:53:13 GMT -5
Well, I finally forced myself to watch this episode (I had trouble knowing it was the last Goren/Eames one ever - I kept saving it, knowing there wouldn't be any more once I'd watched it). I didn't find it particularly satisfying, but still it could have been worse. I would have felt worse if one or the other had been killed, or if they'd simply disappeared between episodes like Logan or Barek. The plot was overly convoluted and full of holes, but I've gotten used to that the last few years.
I interpreted the ending quite differently to others and was relieved to read the different perspectives in the discussion. I was truly horrified at the end of the episode, thinking the disengagement of Goren seemed to me like he was giving up everything. The brushing off of the news of his firing, the strangely vague and uncharacteristic farewell to Eames - my impression that was that he was walking out of the office to end everything once and for all. He had nothing left and accepted that and was just giving up on life. As far as he knew Eames was settled, he had no place in things anymore. He'd already been 'of use' to the FBI in convincing the others to let Ross' killer go, I doubt they'd find any further work for someone who'd been such a loose cannon and he wouldn't fit into Ross' place in the investigation. I just felt he thought everything was over, life was over. No one else seems to think so though, so I'm trying to convince myself otherwise.
I liked Ross and thought his character was given a raw deal in his send off. I didn't think the detectives had been shown as being that fond of him (except Nicols) and this sudden 'he's our friend' angle jarred. Goren's response to Eames' "I think our Captain is getting his life together" was quite unenthusiastic and didn't mesh. I also found it strange there was no mention of his kids, just his previously unmentioned 'sister'.
Eames' resignation was in character. I was glad the final scene occured with just the two of them in the room, quietly. It did put the idea in my head, though, that she would have made a good captain for the continuing series, it's a shame they treated KE so badly that she couldn't continue in that roll or as Nicols' partner.
I do like Nicols, I just wish he wasn't part of a Goren-less CI. It's weird, if they had announced a new Law and Order: Special Unit Something starring Jeff Goldblum, Mary-Elizabeth Mastrantonio and Saffron Burrows (who I remember from her work in England and quite liked) then I would have been dying to see it. Taking over CI from characters I cared so much about, I can only see what they're not.
|
|
|
Post by alliehalliwell on Jun 20, 2010 21:03:30 GMT -5
I just watched both episodes in full for the first time. And yeah, even though I felt strongly about what clips I had seen before, I still feel the same way.
I too, was waiting for some mention of Ross' kids, or even of his ex-wife. They all seemed to be on a good page as they had all had Thanksgiving Dinner together before. So, even if he wasn't happy about his ex-wife you'd think she might have made an appearance at his funeral. His children...I felt like they had to be at the funeral and we didn't see anything. If they couldn't have gotten the same actors, they could have done a cameo shot of dark-curly haired teenagers from behind that we were supposed to pretend were them...
I felt this episode was sticking it to Goren more than before, and I felt robbed. That bathroom scene where he was smacking that guy around? Totally not goren. Yelling, slamming his fist against the bathroom stall to intimidate the guy - that would have been more his style (in my opinion). I think there was plenty of opportunity for them to bring in some positive elements for Goren (as I've said before) and the writers didn't. When Eames asked him if he had an alibi, he could have something simple like, "I was on a date, but I got back early..." and Eames could have said "well that still gives you plenty of time) or they could have blurred the time line a bit." Because Goren didn't have an alibi, it felt like they were sticking it to him for not being married, on top of everything else. Even if he had been with someone, they would assume she was lying for him and that would have been dramatic enough for me.
The overall plot for Loyalty was good in my opinion. I didn't notice any major flaws but then, I kept searching for Goren and Eames. They were hardly in it. The screen time for them was very minimal. I thought people on this board were exaggerating, but no, you were all right. Goren and Eames both probably had ten minutes of screen time each (if you think about it), split up throughout the episode. Two minutes here and there...and the rest of the time was Nichols/Stevens, and the criminals. It really did make me feel cheated...and to be honest, I had forgotten what a lot of people said about the episode. The only thing I did remember were: Ross died, and the G & E scene at the end...so with that said, it was almost like I was watching it unbiased.
All of that said, I still think we were cheated. It wasn't a good send off to THE main characters of a series. Goren and Eames WERE Criminal Intent... and now that they're gone it'll be harder to watch the show. Ross wasn't my favourite but I did like him - he grew on me over the years and I'm glad at least we got to see more of him before he was killed. They could have paid the same respect to G & E.
I know two other people who will be watching the show tonight, and I know, now that I've seen the whole episode, they won't be happy either.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Jun 21, 2010 8:18:06 GMT -5
My understanding is that NBC showed only the second half of this story on the East coast. (I was watching TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD on TCM until after ten.) Again, no respect for LOCI. Or any viewers.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Jun 21, 2010 14:00:48 GMT -5
That's right, Patcat. The Finals (golf) at Pebble Beach went overtime, so they showed the last part of some lame game show and them at 10pm aired Loyalty Part 2.
Even watching the recap of Part 1, the average viewer would have been confused about the plotline, since it was so convoluted. I did catch part of it last night, but really didn't feel up to seeing (yet again) Goren get screwed over by the COD's.
|
|
|
Post by alliehalliwell on Jun 21, 2010 18:03:32 GMT -5
CTV aired it last night too though - which was a surprise since it wasn't on the website when I checked, nor did I ever see it advertised. But I did watch it on CTV from 7-9pm and I'm not sure if it was on NBC but my mom said she taped it in the HD channels from 9-11pm. I have time shifting (with Rogers cable), my mom does too but she also has more stations and the HD. So if you don't have more than the basic cable, you'd have only caught part of it. I noticed both on CTV and NBC in basic cable, they only played half.
Thank god for Time shifting 'cause I'd have really hated to miss that, especially since we don't know when they might air it again.
|
|
|
Post by outerbankschick on Jun 21, 2010 19:09:44 GMT -5
I didn't tune in last night - and it's a good thing because I'd have been supremely irritated at only having Part 2 aired! Those dolts at NBC will just never get anything right, will they? I have both parts downloaded on my laptop anyway, so I can watch them whenever I want - with no commercials.
|
|
|
Post by blinky38 on Jul 7, 2010 20:30:24 GMT -5
I had to watch the episodes a couple of times, as the case was confusing. I was pleased with the kiss and hug at the end between Bobby & Alex, and was really moved by the emotion they both showed with their eyes. I believe the "I'll see you around I guess" implies that they will see each other again. They are too important to each other not to.
|
|
|
Post by skittles4me on Apr 10, 2011 16:51:24 GMT -5
In the "Purgatory" thread, Maherjunkie said:
I think she got tired of the politics involved in the precinct! I might quit if they ran my friend into the ground repeatedly. ...in response to my statement that I think Alex left because of her love for Goren. I really still can't see her quitting a job in which she was just promoted for a friend. I mean, I can understand being loyal to a partner but that just seems extreme IMO. Don't cops earn a pension after 20 years of service? She was just a few years away and she gave that up?
Ah well. I'm anxious to see the season 10 premier's explanation for her leaving and returning. We know Bobby's old friend, the new captain is responsible for his return. Maybe Bobby will return her loyalty and say he won't return without Alex!
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Apr 10, 2011 18:15:29 GMT -5
Some of you may recall that I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about Goren and Eames saving Jimmy Deakins' soul. I think Bobby and Alex may have saved each other's souls. Without Alex, Bobby could've identified too far with criminals. She certainly provided a way for him to communicate with others. But Bobby opened Alex's mind as well. I think she had a certain viewpoint of the world, one that Bobbye changed and challenged. I think he may have been more award of that than she was--one reason why I think he tried to shut her out was that he was afraid he was hurting her and he was embarrassed and ashamed of it. I also think Alex came to realize that Bobby led her to think differently. Alex Eames is a very smart and tough woman. She knew she had to make compromises to work for the NYPD. But when she was forced to fire Bobby, Alex had reached the point where she couldn't make any more compromises.
Patcat
|
|