Hm-m. I think criticism of both Mr. Goldblum and Mr. D'Onofrio was and is accepted on this board, and that it was usually reasonable. But on some other LOCI discussion groups, Mr. Goldblum came in for some unjustifiably bitter remarks.
I think Mr. Goldblum does deserve a great deal of credit for promoting the show. He was everywhere when he joined the cast, and he always said positive things.
Quite frankly, I never understood why, if someone hated the show or hated the character of Goren so much...why then did they spend so much time watching the show?
Because not liking a character is as strong a feeling as loving a character, and for me it was sufficient reason to have my fanny parked in front of the TV every week.
Because it means that VDO created a character with enough flaws, vulnerability and depth on one hand and enough charm, wit and humor on the other hand to provoke a spectrum of reactions from viewers.
Vincent D’Onofrio is one of my favorite actors and I'll admit to not liking Goren all that much. When I was posting regularly on this board, I gave my opinion candidly. When I didn’t like something (the acting, the story, a scene) I said it and I said why. I did the same when I liked something. I know I did cross the line a few times and hurt someone’s feelings. I always apologized when I did. I take full responsibility for everything I wrote. Yet, I always felt I was swimming against the tide and was often given a rough ride for it.
As we both know any good critique is objective rather than subjective and, to me, therein lies the problem.
I hold the opposite view. I think the more subjective the better! I remember some good subjective critiques on this board: heated, polite, political, psychological, stimulating, frivolous, vivid, varied, etc.
. The decision to leave the board really kicked in for me when fiction was unquestionably accepted as fact - fluff - oh, the irony as where will Goren and Eames fit into this alleged USA’s brand of programming?
Could you explain/provide an example of what you mean?
Mimi, I am very familiar with your posts. I honestly do not recall a time when anything you had written was worth apologizing for. You have always been polite and reasonable. even when you have disagreed with someone.
Lets face it - all of us believe that our opinions are valid, and worth posting. If I believe that Vincent isn't giving his best in a particular episode, I have the right to post that, and I do not have to apologize for it. Just like the many posters who reamed USA and Bonnie Hammer do not have to apologize for their comments. I think Bonnie Hammer's personal feelings are equally as important as VDO's, aren't they?
Personally, I think the vast majority of USA board members are polite and fair. It's those one or two bad apples that ruin things. True for most places.
Post by outerbankschick on Oct 2, 2010 19:17:35 GMT -5
"Fluff" also includes things like contrived storylines and simple and easy to figure plots. Love CSI, but it is largely "fluff". Not many twists and you can usually pin the criminal within the first fifteen minutes. Most of TV is just...I don't know...kind of dumb these days. Although there have been some smarter shows debuting this season...and one that returned (The Good Wife). We need an uptick in quality of writing, not the same old contrived junk.
DJ, you are right. It's those "bad apples" that ruined it. Posting something negative can be done without using a harsh tone. And believe me, you can tell when someone is enjoying ripping something apart. It shows. And it was showing quite loudly during some of the discussions in the past.
I think that is what stuck in my craw worse than anything. The fact that a couple of people were absolutely gleeful in their tearing down. There is a huge difference between criticizing something that you didn't like about an actor's performance, and ripping apart the actor himself. And once the "ripping" started, others piled on, unintentionally forming a pack. Because like-minded folks tend to "defend" one another when challenged. Which is how we ended up with two "camps". I think the key is to open one's eyes and recognize the difference I mentioned above. Peg the negative "hater" for what they are, and move on.
I thought the premise of the show was the intent of the criminal not a who-dun-it. That aside, convoluted story and plot-lines have been the norm for Criminal Intent for a number of seasons. An easy example is the latest EOTW, Rocketman, as it's just been discussed. The original commentators even predicted what happened in later episodes.
I completely agree with the LO:CI lite/fluff argument with regards to the standard of writing. Yet, it’s wasn't really about that, it was about the cast changes. As I wrote at the time, I empathised with the Vincent fans, but the bottom-line is the rest of the cast and the writing were later additions - and it’s all there in various threads for anyone to read if they have the inclination.
As a JG fan, I completely agree about the bad apples and herd mentality.
There is no point in beating this drum any longer - Jeff has left the show and I hope that the Vincent fans get their closure in Season Ten.
"Jeff is a nice guy and an excellent actor, whose work has often inspired me. It's a huge honour that he'll be replacing me". Vincent D'Onofrio 2009.
Jeffan, you make a valid point. There have been many a "fluffy" LOCI episode over the seasons long before the cast changes. Bad, lazy writing mostly to blame. And when the writing sucks, its difficult for the cast to get into the role. You mention "Rocketman" with its cringe-worthy dialog. I can envision VDO and Erbe rolling their eyes in between takes.
Along with my excitement and happiness that Vincent is returning for another Season is a fear that his motivation is mostly financial. None of us really know why he has decided to reprise the Goren character. He appeared so happy to be done with it - really and truly happy. Did the movie roles that he envisioned for himself not materialize? Did he realize that he couldn't keep up his lifestyle with bit parts, directing Indy films and playing George Geronimo Gerkie? Or is it mostly for the fans? If so, why not wait until Erbe is also on board?
Let's be real - even at $200,000 per episode, that's 1.6 million dollars for 3 months of work. That is a tantalizing motivator for a family man with young children. I don't blame him in the least. What I am truly worried about is a continuation of the Season 8 Goren characterization.
OBC, I understand your point about those who have been extremely blunt and direct about their opinions, especially when it comes to VDO. I guess I didn't see it as gleeful, but simply raw & no nonsense. Especially from posters who have always written in that style. That can come across as mean spirited, especially on a message board. And its hard not to take those comments to heart.
You have just identified my 2 biggest fears about season 10 Donna Jo, Katherine Erbe returning and the writing. In my heart of hearts I certainly hope one of the deciding factors of VDO returning was that Katherine would return too. But as you pointed out 1.3 million dollars is hard to turn down, especially if you have huge financial obligations. But the writing is what really scares me. Perhaps I am being unfair in the fact that I didn't watch most of season nine, but from what I read of the storylines, most of the episodes seemed to be drek. Which seems to be supported by the declining ratings and the fact that Jeff Goldblum left. JG is a brilliant actor and it sounds like even he couldn't save some of those episodes. If I hear that Walon Green is going to con't to be the show runner, then I will be afraid, very afraid.