3:15 - "Shrink-Wrapped" 2004-03-07

[Metella]

Observer, that is nearly exactly what I meant about pain. See how I just don't need to expand on my statements?

Thinking it all over, I kinda agree with pompusone - that camille was seeking love - but the only way she saw her parents, who she loved, interact was in a struggle for control of every interaction. So, perhaps she thought if she could show she could control the mom's lover, she would have their admiration and a byproduct - their love. Then she was rebuffed & felt rejection from outside & just lost touch ...... this murder wasn't done in a RAGE - she got the acid - lured him in, killed him & didn't she put the acid on his face after he was dead or down? At any rate, the acid was purely to frame a parent - not a weapon of convience.

Once she saw she was not going to get her parents love, she gave into to her pain and decided to really lash out at her parents, collateral damage be damned.

[popularlibrary]

Observer - thanks for the wonderful analysis - points taken. Maybe psychopath was an overstatement. It was a very complex emotional and psychological situation - more power to script and actors for making it so. Let's say I think Camilla had psychopathic tendencies, and had more or less lost touch with anyone's needs but her own except when, as with her young students, they connected with hers.

I think she, like her father, had a strong masochistic streak. Graham was certainly a thrill-seeker, but it seems to me that was bound up with his game-playing and his constant challenges to win or be punished. Camilla bids for power and her parents' attention, but she also leaves a trail of hints, Nicole-like. And I still feel she had too little grasp of love (thanks to Eloise and Graham) to understand achieving it in any other way than power and acknowledgment in their games. She'd lost any sense of empathy or moral boundaries when she upped the ante by murdering her mother's young patient/lover.

One notable aspect of Eloise's pathology was her shrewd awareness of boundaries. Camilla wasn't socialized enough to grasp them.

Elena

[trisha]

Observer, I enjoyed your analysis, but I stick to my guns here. I hope no one minds the repost, but I think this is relevent to the discussion here regarding what is a psychopath or sociopath.

At first the disorder was commonly known as psychopathology. In 1930, G.E. Partridge proposed that the title of psychopath be changed to sociopath, because he viewed the illness as a social problem and not just a mental illness. The American Psychiatric Association officially replaced the term psychopath with the term sociopath in 1952, and today many in the mental health field use them interchangeably. There is a differences in their meanings, though.

The psychopath simply has the mental illness, whereas the sociopath is a psychopath who habitually violates laws and societal norms. It's the consistent criminal behavior of the sociopath that is the difference. So all sociopaths are psychopathic, but not all psychopaths are sociopathic.

Going a little further... There are 3 main categories of antisocial/psychopathic/sociopatic behavior.

1) The Primary Psychopath: Primary psychopaths/sociopaths are considered to be the true psychopath and is the most common. On the exterior they appear to be normal, calm, and educated, but on the interior, they are incapable of any real or deep emotion. He or she may have occasional brushes with the law for petty crimes, but easily talks his/herself out of any real trouble.

2) The Secondary, or Neurotic Psychopath. They have more severe and noticeable emotional problems, and display greater antisocial behavior. They are more likely to have contact with the law than the primary psychopath, and have greater trouble at talking their way out of it as their crimes are less petty, and more violent.

3) The Dyssocial Psychopath. Dyssocial psychopaths are the most rare of the three and because of this they have been studied less, but Camilla makes an excellent model. Dyssocial psychopaths have become so primarily due to observational learning and no real emotional contact.

You can also break it down in the terms a prof of mine does: a psychopath directs most of their aggression on family. A sociopath directs their aggression at anyone and everyone. Camilla chose Christian because he was already "a pawn" in their family game. She would not have passed out HIV infected drugs to innocent people world wide.

Does Camilla really love her parents? No. I don't think so. She has no idea what real love is. Many psychopaths/sociopaths have an Oedipus complex, and that is what I see here. She doesn't love her parents, or even want to be loved by them. She wants to OWN them, and she'll get them the only way she knows how, and that's by playing their sick little game.

There are also many reasons Camilla became a grammar school teacher and works in a poor school, but I don't think she did it out of compassion for the children. I doubt she knows what true compassion is. Another characteristic of many psychopaths is to be self defeating, which is a plausible explanation for becoming a lowly grammar school teacher instead of a psychiatrist like her power mongering mother. That would have made her a real player in the game, but here she is, still chasing her parents around the kitchen begging to be noticed. She also doesn't make enough money to survive without her parents, so she continues to leach off of them in this childish lifestyle with a wardrobe to match.

But as fascinating as Camilla is, it's Eloise who demands the most attention here. Is she a psychopath or just a narcissistic B***h? Shall we use Dr. Hare's checklist do score her? I actually did it already and even without knowing anything about her childhood I scored her at 24. That puts her above the average inmate population in North-America in terms of psychopathic tendencies.

ETA: Here is Dr. Hare's checklist, the PCL-R, so you can score her yourself, have fun

Dr. Hare uses the scores to reflect two things:
a) attitudes and feelings
b) socially deviant behaviors

The scores are as follows:
0= none
1= somewhat
2= definitely does apply

1) glibness/superficial charm
2) grandiose sense of self-worth
3) need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
4) pathological lying
5) Conning/manipulative
6) lack of remorse or guilt
7) shallow effect
8) callous/lack of empathy
9) parasitic lifestyle
10) poor behavioral controls
11) promiscuous sexual behavior
12) early behavior problems
13) lack of realistic long term plans
14) impulsivity
15) irresponsibility
16) failure to accept responsibility for own actions
17) many short term marital relationships
18) juvenile delinquency
19) revocation of conditional love
20) criminal versatility

A score of 0-17 is not psychopathic. A score of 30+ is definitely psychopathic. From 18-29 is a group that cannot be determined as one or the other by this test, but if you care to google the PCL-R you will come up with tons of prisoner stats world wide. The average North-American prisoner rates a mean of 20. The score rises when categorized by repeat offenders, violent criminals, and sexual offenders. So, overall the test is pretty acurate.

[Sirenna]

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. I viewed the episode later thanks to my VCR but I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments on this episode. I loved it myself. I've never watched anything so deliciously, maliciously twisted as this episode and that's saying something even for LO:CI

Carmen's relationship with her father intrigued me. I think she hated him intensely. Reasons would be that, yes, she did extoll his virtues to the detectives but her objective was to frame him for Christian's murder. It was only when she realised she was inadvertently twarting her mother's plans that she changed her story and then towards getting him committed which served her mother's purposes but revealed nothing of her father's innocence.

I think it would be impossible to show him anything like real "respect and love" because throughout her life, she only had her mother's treatment of him as a compass. Her mother constantly berated him to her daughter and others, cuckolded him and undermined, even ruined him professionally. As many of you have already stated, this couple's marriage was, to put it mildly, severely dysfunctional!

I also suspect but have no real indications of in the episode that the next unlucky on her list would have been her father. If he was not around: committed, jailed or dead, then she, carmen, would be the focus of her mother's attention. The attention would have been manipulative, hurtful and controlling but any attention, for someone as invisible as Camilla would be manna to her.

[pompusone]

I would just like to add to my original argument that it was not so much Camilla's choice of profession that convinced me that she was looking for love but that at least one kid really likes her as a teacher. I don't believe a completely self-absorbed person would generate that kind of response in a young child.

[trisha]

pompusone, oh, my my my... no one can make you feel as good as a psychopath. They really know how to butter people up to get what they want, but when it comes down to it they are only mimicking emotional responses and don't really care about you at all.

Sirenna, I don't think Camilla had it in her to acutally hate either of her parents, or anyone else. Sure, she had anger, frustration, and an obvious jealousy, but these were mainly directed at her mother as the key power holder, as well as on herself. It was the ranking in the household that really frustrated the hell out of her. She was the lowest on the totem poll, even lower than Christian- who was the equivalent of a toy. This sent her over the edge, so she decided to take the players role she has wanted all along, but denied to herself. She attempted to become a player by taking her mothers lover.

Christian denies her, though, and her mother has struck another blow without even knowing it. So Camilla strikes back by taking him away the only way she can, by death. Now she has her own trophy head, but the mess associated with it is more than her angry and impulsive mind could fully anticipate.

She didn't intend to frame her father for murder. She framed BOTH her parents equally, but she never intended for anyone to go to prison. She wanted to own them and control them. The frame up certainly drew the attention away from her, but it also had the affect of her father being institutionalized by her mother. AGAIN the B***h gets her way, her father is her mothers "good little boy." This is more than Camilla can bear, and she lets it be know the game is not over. This draws the attention she craves, but not from the person she was aiming for.

Listen to her in the courtroom, she doesn't want her father institutionalized, especially not at the hands of her mother. But, with Goren's help, she is easily confused by Carver's direction and redirection during her testimony and she makes matters worse for her father. All the while she suffers tuts, and haughty and exasperate sighs from her mother. Her father looks pleadingly at her to stop handing the prosecutor tools to send him to prison, and she realizes things have definitely gone wrong. She was supposed to save the day. She was supposed to have the power. Her mother was supposed to kow tow to her.

Then in sweeps Goren, whispering in her ear the voice of all her pain, frustration, jealousy and rage. He directs it mainly at her mother, the way she does. Her mother is no better than her. She is the cause of all the family's problems. Her mother calls her sick and that breaks the damn.

"Now you can't ignore me. I'm your daughter! You made me."

But if you hadn't just seen it with your own eyes, you would not believe that Eloise had just listened to her daughter confess to murder, much less exclaim with such pain and deep seeded rage that she and her games are the cause.

[Sirenna]

trisha said:

Sirenna, I don't think Camilla had it in her to acutally hate either of her parents, or anyone else.

I don't see her motive for Christian's murder in the same light as you do, Trisha. I think she hated both her parents but never admitted, nor even recognized such a contradictory feeling in herself until the very last line of the episode when she she declares "I'm yours!" with such vicious relish. Remember all she ever knew was that her parents were esteemed for improving the relationships and behaviour of their clients using psychology and all she ever saw as an example of what a family relationship was was the way her parents interacted with each other and with her. I agree she certainly sought her mother's attention but I think that for a combination of different reasons (which I'll try to post more on soon).

Transference was a reference that cropped up several times in this episode and I think her attitude towards Christian was akin to her attitude to her father. She recognized that her mother manipulated both men in exactly the same way and both men treated her, Carmilla, with the same attitude of neglect and disinterest while rabidly pursuing her mother. Goren knew the killing was pre-meditated and an inevitable outcome based on Camilla's family history. He underlined this when he said "Did he call you Carmen? Did that make it easier to kill him?"

Listen to her in the courtroom, she doesn't want her father institutionalized, especially not at the hands of her mother.

Agreed she doesn't want this to happen anymore but only because in the car on the way to the courtroom her mother worked on her some more; letting her know she had screwed up and other people would have to be relied on the keep their stories straight.

Then in sweeps Goren, whispering in her ear the voice of all her pain, frustration, jealousy and rage. He directs it mainly at her mother, the way she does. Her mother is no better than her. She is the cause of all the family's problems. Her mother calls her sick and that breaks the damn. "Now you can't ignore me. I'm your daughter! You made me."

Wasn't this an absolutely great scene! I think Goren did try to make Camilla see that her mother was to blame for her father being committed not her. As for her mother, the head shrink diagnosing her own progeny, stripped of her own professional language, which defined her relationships with everyone around her - I just loved it all!

[Metella]

I also don't think Camilla HATED her parents - she just wasn't capable of that depth of emotion. Her emotional range was very shallow, while her need was very great.

I still think she craved appreciation very deeply from those who were her role models - her parents, who were not only bad parents and bad shrinks; but bad people. She just didn't know any better .... or didn't want to go through the effort to know any better is more what I would think of person like that.

psychopaths .... can be most alluring until you are in too close. I don't really have any opinion on whether Camilla was a psychopath or not. I don't think I was offered enough for that - the scene with the kid is not enough to see what her motivation was.

[trisha]

I apologize in advance for those to whom some of this post is too familiar...

Agreed she doesn't want this to happen anymore but only because in the car on the way to the courtroom her mother worked on her some more; letting her know she had screwed up and other people would have to be relied on the keep their stories straight.

I see this in a very different light. When they were in the car Eloise didn't know what Camilla was up to yet. She was rubbing the fact that Camilla was a lowly grammar school teacher in her face without even speaking to her. She was talking shit about her daughter behind her back- to her face, essentially rebuffing her as a nonentity in the situation just in case Camilla felt important by being called to the stand. This is the type of person Eloise is. To say that she is not a psychopath is highly debatable.

If Camilla is a psychopath, she is a dyssocial psychopath, and thus has learned to be as she is. She does seem to have the ability to self actualize and could (in theory) be helped with therapy, but never cured. Observational learning is very important in the development of a child's personality, and once the child passes the age of about 7, the personality is set. A therapist could help, but given her lifelong experiences with the like, she is not likely to ever trust one.

I actually feel really bad for Camilla, despite her crimes, which, as you know, is rare for me. Such a calculated criminal normally rates no sympathy from me. But, what she could have been is so close to the surface that in the proper light you can see the bright and kind person she should have been- trapped, blurred, and drowning beneath the surface of years of abuse in a house of constant psychological warfare.

I understand why Goren chose to distance himself, but if even I feel pity for this killer, I would expect more from him. He knows what kind of scars psychological abuse can leave. He's got them. I guess we all do, in one form or another, but not like Camilla. It's not that I would expect him to be more gentle with her. He had to get the confession, but he just seemed to feel so little when it was done. I guess that makes me feel a little less heartless, and that's a good thing considering the subject matter we've been going over the past few days

[Lilee]

O.K. I only had time to scan the comments, here, but I will say this: LOVING IT!!! To see the parents 'get theirs' was quite satisfying to me. makes me just giggle.

[DonnaJo]

I am always bothered by Goren's complete and utter lack of compassion for Carmella, a young woman who was deprived of her parents love and attention her entire life. How cruelly & completely Goren plays her at the end, whispering, "Come on, come on Carmella " and then shouts at her,"when he called you Carmen,was it easier to kill him?"

She was so obviously screwed up by her narcissistic parents, who received no punishment for their role in Carmella's crime. Even at the very end, when they refused to accompany her to the precinct, Goren shows no sympathy for Carmella. However, Eames does looks sad & uncomfortable.

Goren has shown more understanding & compassion for Nicole Wallace, the "sparkling little girl." YUCK.

[member727]

This was on here last night. Thank you TV Guide, for revealing the perp One of the few episodes I'd not yet seen.

[meggyd]

I thought the difference between Julie in Suite Sorrow and Camilla was that Julie had never been able to move beyond her parents' world, all her future and self-esteem was tied up with the hotel, she couldn't move away from her mother, so there wasn't really an option for her to exist outside the family business. She was completely and totally trapped. Camilla had managed to forge a possible life for herself the family business and become a teacher, and every indication was that she was a good one who had something to give to her students. She was emotionally damaged, but there was a lot more scope for her to have moved on if she'd been able to make the choice to walk away, she did have some kind of option.

For me the most chilling scene was when the parents returned from the play and Camilla was desperate for their attention, trying to tell them about the police and her efforts to protect their privacy, and they just ignored her, and the fear she was trying to express. She was just so completely irrelevant to them, and it was just so crushing. It was also so totally believable.

I thought this was a well written, well acted episode. The realism of it, the potential for parents to be that selfish and that destructive, left me a bit unsettled though. I totally understood how Camilla could have done what she did.

[Patcat]

This is one of those solid LOCI episodes, "well written, well acted" as meggyd wrote. Everything fits together nicely, and both Margaret Colin and Brent Spiner are splendid. It's an episode where Goren's experiences and knowledge clearly help him solve the case, but there's no hammering of the point.

Patcat