To my uninitiated in geneology/names & uncaring about them even if I had the info .....
Goren would never have struck me as a jewish name at all. It seems a shortened name for any family of European heritage to me - so general in my vague experience with names that it is almost generic.
The guy was indeed getting exponentially worked up into a frothing frenzy. (ah that Goren magic) and he didn't seem to have any problem with answering Goren's question in any other part of the episode except for the "you guys twist everything" which clearly meant the cops ........ so although I have read the arguments supporting the fact he thought Goren was partly jewish, I am still unconvinced.
Perhaps this was left that way for the purpose of letting the viewers choose which focus they want for themselves. What ever motive they want best to see in that slobbering, weak and cowardly fool.
Initially, I thought he was referring to cops when he said "you guys." That, of course is what we are supposed to think because the Jewish bias had not been brought up yet. When I saw the end the first time, I decided Brody was referring to Jews; this puts the initial comments into a new light. The two things that he said that convinced me were "Get your dirty hands off me" and "I know what you are." These statements don't have to mean that Goren is Jewish, just that Brody thinks he is.
Post by popularlibrary on Apr 6, 2004 15:21:21 GMT -5
To give a quick answer before the longer one. Yes, Goren is a Jewish name, and yes, our killer assumed he was Jewish although we know from Season one that Goren was raised as a Catholic, and we've been told nothing of his ethnic background.
There was a lot of discussion of this matter on another board, so at that time I asked a colleague at the Jewish Division of the 42nd St. Research Library at New York Public to check into the matter for me. This was her reply:
---------------------------------------------------------------------- I looked in a number of Jewish name dictionaries, and I asked the Genealogy Division to look in Russian, Turkish, and general name dictionaries. According to these sources, the Jewish name "Goren" is actually several names derived from a variety of sources, summarized here. I should just mention that I am including variant spellings because any of these pronunciations in Yiddish could easily come into English spelled Goren.
A dictionary of Jewish surnames from the Russian Empire, by Alexander Beider: Gorin, Goren, Korin: from the village of Gory; or, from the village of Gora; or, from the river Goryn. Goren, Goron: as above; or, from the name Aaron (pronounced Orn in Yiddish); or, from the Ukrainian word koren, a kind of oven Gorn: from German or Yiddish word "horn" (since Russian has no letter h, words with h often change to g in Russian) A dictionary of Jewish surnames from the Russian Empire, by Alexander Beider: only lists Horen, not Goren, with "horn" derivation. Jewish family names and their origins, by Heinrich W. Guggenheimer and Eva H. Guggenheimer: Gorn: Russian, from German "horn" Please note that sometimes Israelis with the name Goren believe this name to be of Hebrew origin. There is a word "goron" in Hebrew, which is a part of a barn (a silo? whatever you call the place where you put the hay)--but this is a false (or "folk") etymology. It is simply a coincidence that the word exists in both languages.
I did not find the name listed as either Russian or Turkish. The general name source we looked at listed it as a Jewish last name of Ashkenazic origin. As you know, it is very difficult to prove a negative, so the fact that it is NOT listed as a name for other ethnic groups does not necessarily mean it is not a name among those groups--only that it was not noted for inclusion in the reference sources. I should also mention, just on the basis of my frequent searches for "Jewish" names for patrons here, that it is very common for last names to be shared between co-territorial Jews and Gentiles, with the exception of Biblical last names like Cohen or Levi. The most "Jewish" names like Rosenberg, and even more so with toponymic family names (names derived from place names or geography), are often found among non-Jews. I'm sorry there isn't something more definite to report, but perhaps the ambiguity of this name is part of its appeal for the writers of the show. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this helps, even if it's more than you ever wanted to know about the Goren name.
To me a nazi-sympathizer would be anyone who hates and hurts people simply because they are Jewish. Incidentally a spate of hate crimes has been plaguing Toronto this month, (grave desecration, swastika's painted on people's door and yesterday a fire bomb in a jewish elementary school!)
As for whether the husband thought Goren was Jewish or not, I think the writers left the question ambiguous for a number of reasons. But mainly because the husband is the type of hater (racist, mysoginistic) who has his own pre-conceived notions of the world and never stops to rationalize. He simply leapt to the conclusion as I think Goren knew he would, that because Goren took him to task about what he had done and because Goren said something that initimated Goren might be Jewish, (although the dialogue was cleverly written to not be explicit one way or the other,) Goren must be 'one of them'. There's no reasoning with people like this. Goren's use of brute force (implied because our boy would never actually pipe someone just because he could, unlike the husband) was a fitting way of interrogating someone like this. Finessing details out of him as in some other interrogations would have had no meaning in this context. He responds to fear: instilling it in others or having it thrown back at himself and that's what Goren did quite effectively I think.
Post by janetcatbird on Apr 6, 2004 16:45:44 GMT -5
Well, it's a type of racism. The husband may or may not have thought Goren was Jewish, but he was deifinitely one of "them" in the sense that he was taking away his life and thwarting his plans. That's one of the theories of racism and other forms of prejudice--people who are frustrated throughout their life search for a scapegoat to blame or explain their problems.
Actually what came to my mind was "To Kill a Mockingbird", a terrific novel and movie. Remember how n---lover was such a horrid term, Scout got in a fistfight at school when one of the children called Atticus that. Probably the husband interpreted Goren as a "Jew-lover" and therefore just as dangerous to him.
Could you believe the complete witchiness of the older sister...Ugh, just makes you cringe and want to shower. Obviously I know such feelings exist, and I know they're a problem, but it's just incomprehensible to me how people can be so blindly mean and hateful and cruel.
I also have a hard time imagining how desperate Lena was. It was a realistic storyline, I don't fault the writers. I personally can't imagine being desperate to the point of suicide for something like this, how could you choose that over turning the guy in? She could still divorce him and keep in touch with the daughter--but that's why they had the Aesop at the end, that pain and suffering would be horrible to cope with. ANd maybe the husband was just blowing smoke, but at the beginning didn't he say "She didn't believe in shrinks"? Maybe that was true so she couldn't see that as an option for afterwards.
"If it's dangerous to talk to yourself it's probably even dicier to listen." --Jim Hightower
I lean toward the name being ethnically ambiguous like Smith or Jones. If you go back far enough you can nail down an origin to any word or name, but origins are often obscured by modern day usage. I agree that this may be the point of using such a name. Looking at the names of some of the other L&O characters strengthens my belief in this. Our characters don't have a strong enough ethnic heritage of their own to separate them from the victims and suspects they are investigating. The characters we see represent New York, the original melting pot, with such a history and prominence that the term "New Yorker" represents an ethnic group in it's own right. It makes sense not to obscure that by giving characters a separate and strong ethnic heritage.
Mastermind - nope, no other problems than no reply option here for a while.
Jewish Name; I have no objection to having Goren being full 1/2 1/4 or married to a jew person. Whatever is my outlook on the thing. I will going to a catholic / jewish wedding next year (they are planning well ahead) and neither practice their religion - the whole wedding is all for family on both sides. From my stand point, the dividing line of religions no co-existing in peace is fading.
Perhaps Goren (the character) is jewish. Perhaps Goren (the name) originated as a purely jewish name. For some it may so concrete they don't know why I am babbling, for some they may be so convinced by the history of the name, that this is their belief. That is why I am not arguing - obviously Elena took a lot of time to check out this surname. I don't doubt a single conclusion she came to. I am just not personally conviced that past the 50's any name is all it appears to be. A Goren by any other name ........
So, even though trisha posted it with more style - while I appreciate the delving and digging into the name, I just see not enough in the episode or the show as a whole to tip the balance in my mind one way or the other as to what was in the bathering murderer's mind as he sunk to a panic stricken rage to try to keep his daughter's love.
Has rage ever attacted females to males? Why do so many rage on as a way to attract, show off or keep a female. Sure doen't work for me.
I don't think it would bother anyone here if Goren were half Jewish. It just struck me as odd that Brody would assume he was Jewish. Of coarse, the first time I heard the name Goren was when I tuned into this show the first time, so I make no attempt at speaking for anyone other than myself.
My question was more to Brody's psychology than any interest in Goren's ethnic background. It seemed to me that the more Bobby became a thorn in his side, the higher up the hate scale he went, until at the end Brody was calling him a Jew. I just wondered if anyone else felt that association was being made in Brody's mind.
exactly .... it matters in the CI world only because it DOES matter to Brody; it was the crutch he used to absolve himself of any moral decay .... they were jews so he could take vengence on them. That is fasinating to me. That excuse is used for all sorts of victim "types" demonizing them therefore the acts against them are righteous. makes one shudder.
Well, I have found just about every other episode I've taped except this one. Someone corrected me on whose parents turned out to be Jewish, which I appreciate. The whole episode is bursting with the no face value rule for me, so seeing it again before I add much to the discussion is a must.
I do have a quick thought on the title, though, that it may have also been a 'statement' made by the wife in the way she killed herself. "There is a murderer among US", this instance the Us Against Them being just the opposite of how the husband played it. I don't really have the vocabulary to express it any more clearly at the moment but wanted to get the thought down because it will be gone in about five minutes!