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Post by Sirenna on Oct 29, 2005 13:38:12 GMT -5
Standing up and saying something everytime it happens means that too much of my time (if i'm a victim) is taken up with bringing this crap to the attention of my bosses and leaves me less time than the man/women who is guilty of it to concentrate on my career, my raise, my promotion, etc. How fair is that?
Definately up to the company to monitor this.
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Post by LOCIfan on Oct 29, 2005 16:02:12 GMT -5
We have a long way to go before women are truly protected from sexual harassment in the work force. We haven't even made a dent. I could launch into a double standard/glass ceiling discussion but this isn't the time nor place for it. By the way, I don't mean to sound snipy with you. I just staunchly believe these "seminars" are part of the problem, not the solution. I agree that we certainly have a long way to go in terms of eliminating sexual harassment from the workplace. But I also know, personally, of situations in which women working for large companies -- companies with sexual harassment policies in place -- have made complaints that resulted in the firing of the harassers, and made a big and positive difference in the quality of their work lives. Had the companies not had procedures in place that were made known to their employees, they may very well have had to put up with the harassment or, if they weren't willing to do that, to quit their jobs. That's what I consider an effective sexual harassment policy, and I applaud the companies for putting them in place and acting responsibly when issues arose. But, to each his/her own.
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Post by Metella on Oct 30, 2005 14:29:55 GMT -5
NicoleMarie - while on the surface your words would make me think that right after the seminar - the speaker grabs a girl after the talk and wags his willie at her as she walks back to her desk ! Or grabbed her butt and said "meet me in the supply room or you're fired" as she layed out cookies for the upcoming seminar talk. You are saying not practicing what they preach and that implies to me some strong and nasty stuff going on.
Tell me if I am getting your actual meaning correct here: are you meaning that the attitude of CEO's or company owners is the same before and after any seminars & that the policies they write down are respected? While I would not conceed this broad generalzation in today's US, Canadian and European countries ..... Let's say I totally agree, then it can only HELP install change to have these seminars as the middle management and other workers will become more tolerant and aware of the possible meanings of their actions.
Was that senario given to D'Onofrio's group harassment? No - not in my defination.
Seminars "part of the problem" ? Laughable that the companies are terrified into compliance? Anything that lessons the chance of SEXUAL HARASSMENT seems like worth some extra time to me.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Oct 30, 2005 18:41:16 GMT -5
D'Onofrio's seminar is not my point. I don't work for NBC and don't know how they treat women who work for them. (Now that I know that they put these seminars on, I wouldn't want to work for them!) You guys are going far out into left field about my comment and I thought I made myself crystal clear. I guess I wasn't. Sorry about that! Maybe this time I will be will be more clear. What I mean by "practicing what they preach" applies to the companies that pay to put these "seminars" on- and then contradict everything they was supposed to be learned from them. I have worked for plenty of places that have put on these stupid harasment seminars. I haven't seen much good come out of them because the supposed lessons being taugtht are not enforced. I'm sure some people have but I haven't. I can think of at least 20 women I know (myself and my cousin included!) who have been fired for complaining about being harrased. I can only think of one who got her harasser fired. *strains brain trying to think of anyone else* Anyway, I think I have pretty good reason for being as pig-headed as I am about this subject. I'm very cynical because I haven't seen results for myself or for others I know. And this subject is one of the most important reasons I like being self-employed! hehehe ;D
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Post by LOCIfan on Oct 30, 2005 22:04:05 GMT -5
I can certainly see how your personal experience impacts your view of this type of seminar, and why you prefer being self-employed. We're definitely coming at this from opposite ends of the spectrum, as I've seen these policies and procedures work in precisely the way they're intended.
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Post by Observer2 on Oct 30, 2005 23:30:44 GMT -5
It seems to me that if a company is putting on seminars about sexual harassment, and not enforcing its own policies, then the problem is with the lack of enforcement, not with the seminars. I think in that case the seminars would be doubly important. For one thing, they help raise awareness among those people who are willing to change. Perhaps more importantly, they raise awareness in victims that there are actually policies and regulations dealing with sexual harassment. And believe me, if I worked for a company and was fired for complaining about sexual harassment, that company would experience some serious negative publicity, if not a lawsuit.
The fact that a company put on sexual harassment seminars would make me *more* willing to work for it, not less. My issue with companies (and school systems, etc.) is not that they hold the seminars, but that sometimes they go overboard, imposing unreasonable restrictions in a vain, but ever escalating, effort to make sure that no one ever feels uncomfortable.
LOCIfan,
Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, not everyone goes by the legal definitions, so I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the dressing room scenario was being given as an example of harassment.
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Post by Observer2 on Oct 30, 2005 23:43:54 GMT -5
Observer, I did NOT dismiss your opinions; I labeled it as hero worship and went on tell why I would define this as unacceptable behavior – therefore not worthy of worship.... ...I really don’t recall any area in which you have come out and said D’Onofrio is wrong; you were not the only one I was lumping in that category, but I do have a sense of your defending all actions attributed to this actor – I’d be glad to hear, here or in a pm, any areas that I have forgotten about. Metella, Perhaps we’re using the word “dismiss” differently. As far as I’m concerned, labeling someone’s opinion as not a product of their own beliefs and thought processes, but as simply an automatic, hero-worship reaction, is innately dismissive. I suspect you would feel the same way, if I dismissed one of your opinions as an automatic, unthought-out reaction to some subject. But I hear that you did not mean to say that you weren’t taking me seriously. In my opinion, the amount of challenging that is appropriate in a seminar depends a great deal on the circumstances. A simple, educational seminar should not be unduly disrupted. On the other hand, if a company official is presenting policy that the presenter helps to shape, and which I’m supposed to agree to, that, in my opinion is, a different matter. “I'm surprised that you would not be all for sexual harassment education in any form...” I’m rarely for *anything* “in any form.” Not homeland security, and not sexual harassment education/policies. I think both have been taken, at times, to unhealthy extremes. I don’t know that the policies were unreasonable in this case – but I don’t see any reason to assume that the lawyer wasn’t capable of making his position on the scenario clear, and I don’t see any reason to assume that D’Onofrio would keep arguing with someone who was agreeing with him. And with one exception, all I was saying in my posts was that I *could imagine* a situation where D’Onofrio’s reactions would be understandable – at least to me – and that I didn’t think we should *assume* something negative about him based on this report. The only exception was that I said I don’t believe he would defend any man’s right to harass a female co-worker. That’s a pretty minimal statement – that I think he would agree that sexual harassment should not be allowed. It says nothing about whether he would agree with you, me, or anyone else, on what constitutes harassment. I wouldn’t call it ‘hero-worship’ to state that I don’t believe he’s the kind of jerk who doesn’t think harassment is an issue. You said, “I really don’t recall any area in which you have come out and said D’Onofrio is wrong” I take it you don’t remember my long argument with various posters on the USA board about his decision to portray someone who used large amounts of methamphetamine for years as overweight. Poohbear was certainly an interesting character... but for anyone who knows anything about meth, the fact that he was overweight made the character unrealistic in the extreme. It jarred me out of the sense of being “in the story,” and I found myself watching the actor instead of the character. I was even more turned off by an article in which he was quoted as saying that part of the reason he decided to make Poohbear fat was to show that he was a slob. Excuse me? I know that in the cultural stereotype, “fat slob” is almost one word. But of all the people who should know how unfair fat stereotypes can be... but I guess it’s just been too long since Full Metal Jacket. I’ve known some meth heads in my time. One of my brothers was one for a while, and so were a number of his friends. During that time they were all slobs. And not one of them was fat. My brother was 6’4” and ended up weighing around 120lbs. We used to say that if he ever broke a rib they wouldn’t have to x-ray him – just stand him in a dark room and shine a flashlight through him. Somehow they managed to seem like slobs without being fat. And I really think that a character actor of D’Onofrio’s ability could have made Poohbear seem like a slob through acting, rather than by using – and reinforcing – the fat=slob stereotype. I like most of what he does, and agree with much of what he says. That doesn’t mean I think he can do no wrong, or that I automatically agree with everything he does and says. You may have been remembering that I said that D’Onofrio is something of a hero to me, because of what he put himself through in order to portray the inner pain of a character who was, among other things, a victim of severe child abuse. But seeing someone as something of a hero isn’t the same as blind hero-worship. It doesn’t mean I don’t question and disagree with them. My older sister has been my hero since I was a toddler, and she has an IQ in the ‘genius’ range, and I don’t automatically agree with everything she does and says! There’s no one alive that I don’t question and disagree with. Not even you...
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Post by NicoleMarie on Oct 31, 2005 0:51:56 GMT -5
I can certainly see how your personal experience impacts your view of this type of seminar, and why you prefer being self-employed. We're definitely coming at this from opposite ends of the spectrum, as I've seen these policies and procedures work in precisely the way they're intended. Count yourself one of the lucky ones! I'm glad someone has positive experiences in this area because I sure haven't.
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Post by Sirenna on Oct 31, 2005 0:58:00 GMT -5
I've had neither postive nor negative experiences in this area so I consider myself one of the lucky ones.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Oct 31, 2005 1:02:32 GMT -5
Observer, I'd like to respond to your posts about sexual harassment but, I'm very tired and the words are jumbled in my head! I want to add to your comments about "The Salton Sea". (This will be easy right now, LOL!)) The idea that Poo Bear was a fat meth user struck me as odd too. I know nothing about drugs so was never cetain something was off until I read your post. hehehe I have a different beef with the character: why did Vincent have to portray the character as a southerner with a thick "hick" accent? I am a southern lady, courtesy of my mothe,r and that really bugged me, especially since he was the only one with that kind of accent! What's ironic is that is the best southern accent, or accent period, that he has ever done! Maybe I'm missing something but I think t he accent was completely unnecassary.
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Post by Metella on Oct 31, 2005 8:44:35 GMT -5
If I was around during the Pooh Bear discussions - then not only did they slip my mind, but even hearing your recap doesn't bring it back to my memory. So there, I now have 2 instances in which I see non-hero-worship. thanks.
I thought I was clear in my parameters in this thread - all my discussions on the seminar were going to be taken "as if the article were acurate". So some of this is taking apples & oranges when trying to clarify to me using the "it maybe acurate" stance.
Good point on who was giving the seminar - if it was a lecture type, then speaking up was out of line. If it was a thinktank - let's form policy one - then of course, input would not only called for - it would be wrong not to speak up. From the wording and from the large amount of attendees, I would think this was the former type; but then again - there is no way to know from the information we have been presented.
Nicolemarie - I can also now see how you are reacting to this; too bad you had to go through that. But some others who may go through what you go through and listened - may have also felt the power of law behind them and slapped a lawsuit on the employer for firing them. It would all depend on circumstances; but I think the more info a person has the better they are able to fight injustice.
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Post by aboutnici on Nov 1, 2005 10:53:59 GMT -5
Vincent honey... you need to chill. Go get a drink, get laid and have a smoke afterwards. HAHAHA, I've to laugh at that one!
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 3, 2005 22:35:04 GMT -5
I wish I could have afforded a proper attorney to have sued them into the ground! I could have sued but, they would've outlasted me financially.
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Post by Metella on Nov 4, 2005 10:55:17 GMT -5
I hear you - ain't that a crying shame? My boss now is looking at some legal issues & he was out playing golf yesterday .... why? because he has enough $$ to throw at his problems that he doesn't have to worry about it. humph.
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noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
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Post by noc on Nov 7, 2005 17:24:20 GMT -5
If it's true and it's a lecture type situation, it would probably be considered inappropriate in my work group to argue with the presenter. It makes the meeting longer and most of the presenters can't go very far off "script".
When I worked at a large university, we weren't allowed to have "in-depth" or non-lecture discussions about date rape, sexual harrassment, etc. Most of the legal staff at the university and certainly within the Greek system had concerns there would be disclosures in a "open format" that could be utilized in a lawsuit later.
In terms of the Southern accent, my mom taught us to speak "flat" outside of the home. Not sure why, but we moved away from the South when I was about 6 years old. I'm sure that had a lot to do with it.
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