Hello again. I do like „Want“, so I had no problems watching the ep for the third time. Well, let‘s do it systematically. First. That cannibal stuff. To me it was secondary or tertiary to the episode. It surely added gore to the episode, but not necessarily depth. I perfectly understood what Tagman wanted, even without Goren‘s conclusion, that he wanted to be connected to the woman by consuming her flesh. BTW, there was a cannibal case in Germany, some years ago, which made the Jeffrey Dahmer case look like a Simpson‘s Treehouse of Horror Halloween special. The perp had met his victim, a male, too, through the internet. He gave him lots of pain-killers to swallow, cut off the victim‘s member and fried it in a pan. He consumed part of it, gave his partner his share, too, and left the rest for the crime scene techs. Believe it or not, the famous „headline-cannibal“ is a free man by now. Second point. The death penalty. Germany does not only not have the death penalty, the Federal Republic has a very mild penal code...especially as far as violent crimes are concerned. Critics have always pointed out, that the German penal code knows harder forms of punishment for crimes against property than for those against body and life of fellow human beings. One example: Bank robbery with a toy pistol (doesn‘t matter, it‘s a robbery, nontheless). Suggested sentence: Five years in prison. Second example: Rape resulting in victim‘s death (BTW something close to that what Tagman did...)...suggested sentence: Five years in prison. My assaulter got two years *on probation*. Okay, he spoilt his probation by commiting other felonies, so he finally ended in jail, but I found myself thinking: In Poland he would have gotting 12 years. In my second home country, many, many people want the death penalty back. It was abolished in 1998, officially, but because of pending membership in the European Union nobody had been executed the years before. Current president Lech Kaczynski is rumored to be an advocate of the death penalty. I‘m sure he‘d like to have it back, but I‘d also like to know how he‘s going to reconcile that with his project of Poland as „a Catholic state“. He‘d find a way, of course. His project of a „catholic state“ is quite disgusting -- he appearently forgot that even Roman Catholics should be Christians. He forgot that we are supposed to love our brethren. And now he forgot that we aren‘t supposed to kill, either. I don‘t know if I qualify as a „lapsed Catholic“, when asked I usually reply: „Not yet lapsed, but I drag my foot“... anyway, my reasons against capital punishment have always been religious ones. I think we aren‘t allowed to decide who‘s going to live and who‘s going to die. However, and now a long, emphasized „however“ is coming in...however I understand it, that relatives of people who‘ve been murdered, or in the case of the woman in this ep, reduced to the life of a vegetable, seek this kind of official revenge. Imagine Tagman comitted his crimes in Germany and the judge gives him 5 years in the so-called „humaner Vollzug“, which means he can even check out of prison and get‘s parolled after four years. I‘ve heard of some cases, where the procecutor, knowing that the perp had severe mental damage, asked for „Sicherheitsverwarung“, which means some kind of permanent instiutionalization, but I‘ve never heard that it was granted. Third point. Tagman. Yes, I somehow felt sorry for him. But I don‘t understand why he never sought help. There must have been some point in his life where he realized, that he cannot keep a girlfriend. That they all run away because of reasons he at least partially understands. What happened in the time frame after this self-regnization and before he armed himself with the chloroforme and the other drugs? Did he read books instead of seeking professional help? Was it that way he found out about lobotomy, which was formerly used as a treatment for mentally ill criminals? The actor who portrayed Tagman did a good job, depicting him as a loser type. With that dorky cap, glasses and a very, very timid voice nearly a stereotypical loser type. But anyway, stereotype or not, such people are out there. And I know, that to many people I appear like a female version of the loser stereotype. An aged version of Lisa Simpson, whose only companion seem to be book and who does not know anything about the latest craze in fashion. As a teenager I was quite successless with the guys, and I think that my lack of experience with the other sex made it easier for a guy like F.N. to do things to me I didn‘t want to. But you can learn everything, even getting along with people of the other sex -- or even yours, as most people go both ways. I appear like a nerd to many people. I don‘t look like a beauty queen, and worst of all, I‘m from a family of hillibillies. But I‘ve managed to make myself special. And some guys like smart girls, especially if they‘re witty. So I‘ve never been starving, as far as romance and adult pleasures are concerned. Point four. Goren‘s looks. I liked him in that episode. His hair was a little longer, greyish and curly, and it also looked a little greasy. But it also might have been some kind of styling product. It looked a little unusual. Not the butch S3 haircut (I switched from „Conscience“ directly to „Want“ the first time...), rather the other extreme. Maybe Bobby likes to try out different styles... And he had those puffy cheeks which make him look so incredibly cute... I love him a little chunkier, you know. And it was so nice to watch him eating the chili or see his reaction to Tagman‘s DVDs. Did you notice how often our hero spends hours in the video screening room? A friend of mine suggested, that he maybe has a video-library card, too. Detective Goren, the closet couch potato. Hard to imagine, but not impossible. Goren was a little tired, that‘s true. Lots of work in the MCS, I presume. Maybe he didn‘t sleep for the whole week. Spending the nights in the office, trying to figure out how to convict a perp based on the facts jotted down in the binder...it sure leaves a trace on the face. And when he‘s home he cannot simply forget that stuff. All these thoughts prevent him from sleeping. Either these or too much coffee. And I‘m pretty sure he‘s got a closet smoking habit, too. And as for eating Chinese food at midnite (as shown in „The Good Child“, I think), that‘s also highly addictive and makes everybody put on weight. I know it because that‘s what my boyfriend did while writing his thesis...
Carver's going for the death penalty was legal grandstanding. For one thing, New York State hasn't actually executed anyone in many years, and a recent ruling (which occurred after WANT originally aired) effectively left the state without the death penalty.
I don't think Goren saw himself as Tagman or even sympathized with him. He understood Tagman and recognized that Tagman was mentally ill and incapable of controlling his actions. Unfortunately, we do execute the mentally ill and disabled in the US, but morally and legally we should not.
On a purely practical level, Goren saved the citizens of New York a huge amount of money. By some calculations, it can cost more for a death penalty case to work through the courts than it does to house an inmate for life.
Post by NicoleMarie on Jan 18, 2006 16:01:22 GMT -5
I think Goren overstepped his boundaries as a police officer. Though it rarely happens, Goren really pissed me off in this one.
Tagman admited he knew what he was doing was wrong. People like that don't have a soul and don't deserve sympathy. I side with Carver on this one: "I can't believe a man could cry so many crocodile tears."
Post by NicoleMarie on Jan 18, 2006 16:03:41 GMT -5
Regarding Goren's hair in this one: I liked this style the best. I usually like most of Goren's haircuts but not the cut this season. It is way too short and unflattering to the shape of his face. Please grow it back out, Vincent! ;D
I agree Patcat. I think Tagman knew what he was doing was wrong and he was disgusted with himself. As sick as his crimes were, I don't think he was a malicious person. He really only wanted a relationship. I believe his remorse was genuine.
genuine remorse, fake remorse... honest tears, crocodile tears... it's so hard to tell it apart. I know that so many perps ride on this "I'm so sorry" wave, occasionally supported by the "I am born again" wave. So did that jerkass F.N. He still tries it this way. And I know it's fake. His tears are crocodile tears in the earliest sense of the word: "DEVORAT ET PLORAT": It devours and cries. And I still fail to understand why Tagman never sought help, even if he knew he was not sane. He surely knew it before he murdered the young woman. At least after the murder ( I think it was one) he should have known that he had a very serious problem. Instead of drinking beer and watching porno dvds he should have gone to the police and confessed. He should have known that sooner or later they would have gotten him anyway.
Post by psychochik on Jan 18, 2006 17:43:31 GMT -5
He was probably one of those people that felt that as long as he didnt get caught there was nothing wrong with what he had done. Whether it was mental illness getting in the way or him knowing exactly what he was doing doesnt matter. The mind of a criminal is so different from us "normal" people, while we have the ability to differentiate between right and wrong, they might not have that control. They may know the difference, but lack ability stop themselves when confronted with what they should do.
"Theres no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated" NOFX
"The presidents laughin cuz he voted for Nader" NOFX
ITA, rosemary. We all make choices. I think that some allowances need to be made for the mentally ill, but we simply cannot let anyone go around hurting others willy-nilly, or worse, with planning. John Tagman didn't go around willy-nilly, he stalked his prey and had plans to hurt them. Whether or not he could see that what he was doing was wrong is hard to say. He knew it was against the law, which is why he covered his tracks, but I think that he really believed he could make a girl happy if she didn't think too much ... or at all.
I don't feel bad sending someone like him to prison, and I do believe that the laws we make and uphold define us as civilized societies and decent human beings. Just as we can't go around willy-nilly hurting people, we can't go around ignoring or eviscerating established law. If a law is bad, it's up to the people to decide; not some overzealous, or politically motivated prosecutor.
I honestly lost some of my respect for Carver in this episode, and I daresay that Goren did as well.
Both Carver and Goren were overzealous in this episode. Goren bordered on insubordination, and Carver... it has been known that he doesn't have much sympathy with people who break the law, even if they share his convictions ("The Third Horseman"), but he doesn't twist the law either. When Goren showed him one of his law books in "Magnificat" and asked him if there wasn't anything in it that could get that creep an indictment, he replied that there wasn't anything when he checked that morning. And concerning Tagman, it is a little doubtful, if it was first degree murder. I think he didn't want to kill the young woman. He wanted to make her compliant and/or dull. But couldn't he have figured out that drilling holes into somebody's skull can cause death? Not to mention that he drugged his victims... he must have accepted the possibility of the women's deaths. BTW, F.N. also got a taste of his own medicine while in jail. I guess that a fellow inmate raped him. That's why he wants to get out of jail and uses all his strength to harrass me into taking back my statement. He's tried the "born again" thing already in the past, now he's trying the "my life is miserable because of our unsolved conflict" thing. A felony is called an "unsolved conflict" now? O my. Why is punishment cruel and unusual in some countries and obviously non-existent in others?
Post by NicoleMarie on Jan 19, 2006 13:55:06 GMT -5
I don't see Carver as being overzealous here. He was just doing his job of trying to put a killer away for good.
It seems the show is split between those who either sided with Goren or Carver: Goren who felt Tagman was mentally ill or Carver who felt Tagman was not. I usually always take Goren's side but not this time. The only other time I can recall siding with Carver over Goren (and Eames) was in "Acts of Contrition". Carver most most certainly "right" that time.
One of the reasons I never particuilary cared for Carver is because he is..."soft". If you want someone who is considered overzealous by some people, think of Jack McCoy. He will do anything and everything, short of breaking the law, to get a killer convicted. I don't call McCoy overzealous, I call him determined and ingenious! We could use some more Jack McCoy's as prosecutors!