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Post by Sirenna on Nov 1, 2004 20:50:21 GMT -5
Interesting article. Poor auto-mechanics though. Just think of all the money they losing by assuming all those guys understand engines. The ME probably didn't have time to go over the parts. It must be like Grand Central in an NYC morgue  Even so, G still pipped her to the post with his immediate observation about the hand. Yes, he's a bit of a teacher's pet  but I'm still sticking up for my guy. He's the bright boy on the block and it must get on his co-workers nerves once in a while, including Eames, I bet. Regarding the final scene, I didn't see Goren as at all torn between the case and the suspect here. I saw healthy horror in both G & E towards The Keeper of the Stone. Rose was the one who leaned into Goren. Goren did pat her shoulder at the end but he also seemed to give her a 'push' off in the direction of the arresting officers too. There are ways to hug that mean certain things and often people use the touch with the pat or the push at the end to stop contact rather than accept or prolong it. Women do this a lot when they don't want to hug a guy but want to get out of the situation without conflict. PS. I only go to certain sites because I like what particular posters have to say. I have to admit, I'm disapointed when I read a post already posted on another site, here, too. We end up with discussions among the same people that are the same content! |
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 1, 2004 21:01:26 GMT -5
Although that comment about --drowning? I thought it was feeding?-- baby kittens made me think "Danger Will Robinson!" Rose needs some help, badly. Where it first occurred, it was feeding. The minister quoted Rose saying she couldn’t bear to think about the lives of the people she was feeding, so she closed her eyes and pretended she was feeding cats (or maybe it was kittens). And your reaction was appropriate... Danger, Will Robinson, indeed! Or in my terms, that signals that she was a real sick puppy! In the final scene, Goren refers back to it, and to the way it played out in her ability to shut her eyes to the people who were being killed because of her, when he asks if she pretended it was kittens being drowned. Thanks for posting about that little experiment. Pretty dramatic results, there. Not something anyone would get away with, with Eames. |
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Post by Techguy on Nov 1, 2004 23:32:19 GMT -5
I'm about ready for Rogers to defend her turf...Rogers has made one or two slips on the mothership, but NOT this close together and not to show off one of the leads. PS: As to the humor...forced and hokey. While I understood the meaning of "Mrs. Magoo" I didn't find it especially amusing. Guess I'm the only one who didn't like it, huh? |
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Post by darmok on Nov 2, 2004 0:07:47 GMT -5
I thought it was an good episode, although I agree that it was hard to follow on the first viewing.
Little inconsistencies bother me, and I noticed a couple due to Goren's hair. Someone mentioned a similar problem with Great Barrier, but I didn't see it even though I was looking for it. Most of the episode was apparently filmed before the hiatus. However, the scene where Deakins makes the "mothership" remark and the following scene in the parts shop were shot after the break. Eames' hair is longer and Goren's is longer and grayer. For some reason, they either hadn't done these scenes or had to reshoot them.
Then, in the final scene, I'm pretty sure they slipped in another shot of Goren. Someone will need to check me on this. Goren is talking to Rose about losing the baby, and she says she didn't lose it. We then get a close-up on Goren, but the cut to him seemed a little rough. And his sideburns looked grayer to me in the close-up; I rewound about 4 times to watch this. It just seemed pasted in there.
I know hairstyles change. But because his is such a dramatic change, it makes it quite noticeable when they have to reshoot a scene.
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Post by LOCIfan on Nov 2, 2004 1:58:30 GMT -5
Overall, I enjoyed this episode more for its bizareness than for anything else. All those body parts, a calcified fetus?!? Weird stuff!! But I thought the plot was murky and difficult to follow, and the humor was corny -- the kinds of lines my great uncle Al would come up with (and be the only one laughing at them). Endearing in its own way, but not all that funny. It seemed that at least a few scenes were shot this fall rather than last spring, and I wonder if that was due to problems with the plot. This story didn't seem as intricately complex as much as it just seemed sloppy. Except for Great Barrier, where we know a different ending was shot later, most other episodes seem either to have been wholly shot last spring or wholly shot this fall, but haven't been a mish-mash of both. Or have they? Perhaps I missed some hair cues. This one was a so-so episode for me. A decent, if not mind-blowing, way to while away an hour. |
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Post by Patcat on Nov 2, 2004 10:31:13 GMT -5
I'm generally not bothered by Goren's hair (although I'll confess I like it somewhere between the longest of this season and the shortness of the third). But I was bothered by the fact he had his suit coat off during the interview with Rose's former coworker and his gun was visible for everyone to see. Perhaps it was because they were at the Brooklyn Courthouse, and he left the coat in the car? My passing and inadequate knowledge of cops indicates plainsclothes cops tend to try to hid their guns most of the time.
And the cops I've known tend to either feel naked without a gun or can't wait to get it off.
Patcat
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 2, 2004 13:22:20 GMT -5
...as someone involved in technical work myself, I would get pretty ticked off if he or anyone else started staking off territory on my turf and at my expense. And most especially if he seemed to enjoy taking my reputation down a notch in the process. I would prefer the CI writers let Goren be Goren without him resorting to testosterone laden markings. Goren was not marking territory in the scene with the ME, and he certainly wasn’t trying to take her reputation down a notch. Testosterone has nothing to do with it. There was something Goren didn’t understand, and he wanted to understand it. He asked her, but she didn’t know... yet. There’s no implied insult to the ME, there had not been time yet to run tests. But for Goren, the point was that she didn’t know; so he tried to figure it out. And he’s very kinesthetic. When he wants to see something clearly, or really understand it, his impulse is to touch it or pick it up. He tried modeling it... looking at his own hand held in a parallel position, but he still wasn’t getting it; so, with a slightly anxious glance at the ME, he picked up the hand. He wasn’t trying to challenge her. He certainly wasn’t trying to take her reputation down a notch. He just needed to figure out what that stain was. Goren has played the testosterone game a few times, and that has always seemed to me to be what it was, a game – a deliberate maneuver to manipulate or intimidate someone. (Well, maybe not always a game. In Pas de Deux it was a deliberate maneuver, but he certainly used it to express his rage and contempt.) His few genuine clashes with Carver have never seemed to me to have anything to do with a testosterone-driven desire to establish rank or territory. They’ve always been clearly about the issues. Goren certainly has his flaws, but he’s never seemed to be one of those men who always have something to prove. He puts his testosterone to good use – he’s a bit protective, tends to take point when gunplay is likely, has some nice muscles to show off when he leaves his suit jacket in the car (hey, it was the courthouse, where people are used to cops with guns coming and going), and if there’s a heavy metal door to be opened, both he and Eames assume he's the one to do it – but he doesn’t let it go to his head. Too few men manage that kind of balance, not to mention maintaining full respect for their female colleagues. It’s something a lot of women really appreciate about Goren, the fact that he doesn’t feel a need to mark territory or otherwise ‘one-up’ someone to prove his manhood. |
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Post by trisha on Nov 2, 2004 16:05:07 GMT -5
I also don't think Goren had any intention of one-upping Rogers. I think he has a great deal of respect for her, and I get that from his body language when he is around her. His gestures toward touching her "things," (whatever they are,) are often hesitant with glances to her. This tells me that he wants her permission. Occasionally his comfort around her and in the morgue may lead him to take a step too far in his curiosity. The swab in Mad Hops may be an example of this, but I'm not certain if Rogers took the swab because it was her job, or because she felt that perhaps Goren would have too much respect, or latent feelings for the boy to get the job done right. I can't help noticing how gently he touches the dead, and I wonder if that has not escaped her attention as well.
You know, I was just going to let hair thing go, but since everyone else seems to be jumping on it, YES! That was a little confusing for me, too, but I don't think that there is anything that the editors could have done about it. That is in the hands of the actors, and you can't really ask them to never change their hairstyles for the sake of editing.
The cherry blossoms rivaling the dates was a definite editing problem, but as many of you know, I have a standing policy of never reading the dates. They get stuck in my head and drive me crazy.
I like how the dates demonstrate how long the case is taking to progress- it adds a tiny bit of realism to show that it took 2 weeks or more to build a case against someone, and often many months to bring them to trial.
The problem comes in when people like me can't forget the dates and notice that G&E are working on too many cases at once, or that their hair suddenly got long and then short again. It is also a problem with seasonal changes. Even in Eosphoros it was hinted that it was spring- not fall (it's still muddy in the park this time of year?) So, never, NEVER, read the dates. They are more trouble than they are worth.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Nov 2, 2004 16:21:13 GMT -5
So, never, NEVER, read the dates. They are more trouble than they are worth. Sounds like an excellent idea, Trisha.  Oh well, I'm just going to ignore hearing the line about the blossoms coming in four weeks earlier. I missed it the first time anyways. Even with what are minor errors in my opinion, it was still a good episode. I still can't get into the previous week's episode. I remember reading an interview long ago with Jill Hennessy where she stated that she had to get a haircut every month or so because Claire Kincaid's hair wasn't allowed to be even a smidgen shorter or longer...it had to be the same length throughout the run. BTW Trisha, congratulations on your promotion.  |
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Post by janetcatbird on Nov 2, 2004 17:34:32 GMT -5
Will everyone PLEASE quit talking about the damn hair?!?!?! Sorry, but I'm getting annoyed with every single conversation winding up with D'Onofrio's hairstyle. I am oblivious to those sorts of editing mistakes, I didn't notice. But it's not just this episode--I mean, we pride ourselves on intellectual conversation, for crying out loud. If all we can talk about is "I like it long" who are we to be snippy about the other boards?
OK, venting done.
My frustration about Rogers is not directed towards the character Goren--as Eames put it in the first season "He can't help himself". I didn't think it was a turf issue, and I knew he wasn't being macho. We know it's his way to poke and prod, that's just SOP for him. The ones I have a problem with are the writers giving her short shrift. Would it have been so horrible for Goren to notice the green stain and pick up the hand, then ME Rogers to comment "I haven't written it up yet, it might be from copper wire". What would have been so bad about that? We KNOW Goren's a brilliant guy, they DON'T have to belittle the others to prove it. #nosmileys
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Post by NikkiGreen on Nov 2, 2004 18:12:19 GMT -5
Will everyone PLEASE quit talking about the damn hair?!?!?!... It was one of the mistakes in this episode as far as lengths for both Goren and Eames. Short one minute, long the next, and back to short. |
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 2, 2004 19:42:48 GMT -5
Actually I've never prided myself on my intellectual conversation. ;D
TV shows, plays, films, music videos are all visual mediums. Talking about image is integral to a well rounded discussion of any of them. Frankly I don't think we talk enough about set design, actor portrayals, image etc. We spend time on the psych aspects of the show, which, for me, are only incidental devices used to push forward interesting stories. Talking about Goren's, or Vincent's hair, clothes, mannerisms are all part of the overall authenticity of LO:ci. I guess the way the post is written reflects on the poster but that goes for all our posts.
I also thought Goren was just over-zealous and thoroughly professional with the hand. After all, he and Eames were on a murder case. He saw what he saw. He knew it was crucial to the case. It just happened to be before the ME did. They couldn't pretend they didn't see the green flecks so the ME would have time to do her job. It's just one of those things that happen at work. They are top of their league after all and supposed to catch things other people might not.
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Post by Techguy on Nov 2, 2004 23:10:53 GMT -5
Observer, I watched my tape of this episode again and I see where you're coming from--somewhat. My describing Det. Goren's behavior with ME Rogers as a turf war with testosterone markings might have been a bit too harsh. However, I'm still in agreement with Janetcatbird insofar as how the scene could have been presented to avoid any suggestion of one-upmanship.
Of course, I thoroughly enjoy Goren's macho posturing when he puts perps in their place. But I'm still not comfortable with how the scene between him and the ME was presented, despite your explanation of his mannerisms. I admit--and this is my own personal taste and bias--but I get turned off if Goren comes across as a super know-it-all when he's dealing with a professional colleague. Whether or not his INTENT was to one-up the ME is beside the point.
As Janetcatbird suggested, the writers could have presented the uncovering of evidence in a manner that didn't appear to short shrift Rogers in the process. I understand how there might not have been enough time for the ME to find what Goren did. But the way the scene played out for me, it looked like Goren showed up just in time to point out what Rogers missed (didn't we see this sort of thing already in an earlier episode this season?) And Goren seemed to be enjoying the moment of revelation just a bit too much. If I were in the ME's place I wouldn't like it one damn bit.
And upon further review, I still found the "jokes" a bit stale and, for my taste, out of place in an episode with the subject matter that "In the Dark" was dealing with. The comic ghoulishness just didn't mesh with the tragic ghoulishness that followed. Chalk it up to overall crabbiness, temporary dullness of wit, or just not being receptive to the attempts at humor. Whatever. It didn't work for me.
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Post by Metella on Nov 3, 2004 8:35:44 GMT -5
I just get into the episodes & so the hair, while I notice if it is overall long or short in an episode, I personally do not catch it in my mind during the episode. So with that, I am with catbird; it doesn't seem to be a huge point to the episode - it is kinda like - well the weather is windy - so we shoot the planned scene & ignor the swirling leaves BUT I do think that those who like to niggle into all the corners and speculate their odd little hearts out ..... well, it is fair ground game for them to point out the edits and which scenes were shot back to back or have a hair cut gap.
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Post by trisha on Nov 3, 2004 9:26:41 GMT -5
Hey! Some of us can't help noticing it. It's as obvious to us as if they had just turned purple, okay?! No need to get your panties in a ruffle about it. If you don't want to hear about the hair changes, or any of the other editing issues that happen, I'll keep it to myself. But, just so you know, it's noticing little things that develop some of our most interesting conversations -- like the conversations we had about KE being pregnant months before it was announced for sure. But if you'd rather we just keep stuff like that to ourselves, then we will  |
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but I'm still sticking up for my guy. He's the bright boy on the block and it must get on his co-workers nerves once in a while, including Eames, I bet.
Patrick Roy, 2006 inductee into the Hockey Hall of Fame
