|
Post by Observer2 on May 2, 2005 18:36:22 GMT -5
Thanks, Catbird. I appreciate that.
As to Sarte parallels, yeah... you had to know that title wasn’t a coincidence. There was even a reference to Hell (which, when Eames threw it back in the guy’s face, got a nice reaction out of Goren).
I’ll leave it to you, Domenicaflor and PopularLibrary to do the in-depth literary workup. But the quality of evil, the day-to-day, crushing - yet somehow petty - cruelty of Timmons really echoed for me the quality of evil in that play. (Edited to correct a mental slip: Timmons wasn't the murderer... at least, not technically... he merely spread evil like a smothering cloud...) There were other echoes, I thought, as well – but they’re even harder for me to put into words.
I had never actually read the play until the discussion of this episode's title came up on the “upcoming episodes” thread. It’s an emotionally brutal play – I don’t recommend it as light reading. But the depth of insight into the negative aspects of the human condition is stunning. I think C. S. Lewis is the only other writer I’ve known who could capture that quality of evil – not the results that sometimes seem so overwhelmingly large – murder, rape, suicide bombings – but the place those things come from -- the little-ness of the evil mind, no matter how grandiose it’s self-image.
I don’t see as many problems/weaknesses with the plot as many here seem to. I don’t have time to write much about it right now, but I do want to add to Metella’s list. It wasn’t just that Carmine had “lost his standing as a human” for Hubert. I think Goren explained it with his last line (an ending I really liked – completely in-character for each of them, and integral to the story). Hubert was projecting – seeing in Carmine all the evil that had crept into his own behavior, all the things about himself that he despised, projecting his own unbearable feelings of guilt onto Carmine, where the guilt could be redeemed, by killing Carmine to help Edie’s family.
|
|
|
Post by janetcatbird on May 2, 2005 18:50:20 GMT -5
Yes, I read "No Exit" last spring as part of a French lit course (English translations, thank Bob). I definitely remember the emotional response, it sounds weird to say I enjoyed such a play, but it really triggered the light bulb, that was one I really ate up in class discussions. Marie (I think was her name) was the one who disgusted me in that play, they were all self-absorbed but she refused to even move past "I want to have fun and I won't let anybody inconvenience my whimsy". At least Inez was honest about what put her in Hell, I really was intrigued by her character. (Oooh, can't you imagine Kathryn Erbe playing that part?)
But, like I said, I missed the episode so I can't draw exact parallells. And it's been a while since I read the thing--haven't seen it performed live--so I may have to hit classicnote.com to refresh my memory after USA shows it, next Saturday I believe. And it does sound like some good characterization, Eames beats Goren to a lit reference, Carver gets a courtroom scene, Deakins is involved? Gentlemen set your timers... maybe in the meantime we can start a C.S. Lewis thread under the books section.
|
|
|
Post by NicoleMarie on May 3, 2005 10:33:19 GMT -5
I really want to stay away from here but I am a sucker for closure. I'm angry about this show, still. I am not as flustered or as dazed as last night but I still am angry. Still angry enough to quit watching this series. I may be the only person who feels this way but I make no apologies. It was put into words on another board what upset me so much about this show. I could not find the words. I usually love to discuss and dissect these shows but I just couldn't this time. I do understand where a few posters are coming from, here, and over there, but I do not agree at all. My brother killed himself 9 months ago. Maybe I am still raw and hypersensitive and explains my reaction to this show. I would like to think whoever put this show toegether would have enough common sense and decency to stop and think how this would effect people. I am disgusted that this show was aired. I was disappointed in the actors as well. I actually hated Goren and Eames both, especially Goren. I can never look at them the same way again. Goren subtle? Not on the final scenes. D'Onofrio should be ashamed of his performance then. The way Goren treated Hubert sickened me. The ending and theme of this show was irresponsible and callous. I have no respect for the ending. It didn't take a gutsy person to "end" this show the way it was ended, it took a coward. The suicide was downplayed and belittled in such a manner, as is if were a joke. There was no justice for Edie. They didn't care. Whoever wrote this show gave me the message that if you commit suicide you are a weak, cowardly person. I highly resent how suicidal people were represented. Suicidal people do not act on a whim or shallow reasons. There were no solid reasons for the suicides. For Edie there was and yet no one gave a damn about her. All they cared about were themselves, what they wanted for themselves. And I resented the insinuation that something as ridiculous as a website helped push people over the egde. They made their choices long before coming upon the website. The lame repeated line: "If you don't help, what kind of person are you". GO TO HELL!!! You can kill yourself helping, you can help all you want but when someone wants to kill themselves, they will. Suicide is not that black and white. It's not that simplified. It's not that easy. It's not that smart to make it look like THIS is all there is to suicide. That only whiny, shallow, overworked, cowardly people commit suicide. Suicide is a disease, not a joke. Suicide should not be made to look like a punchline. I've read comments where people have liked this show. I cannot understand why they did, just as I'm sure they will not understand why I despised it. As I write this, I'm not sure no one still will understand why I'm upset. I'm sure I have upset people by posting this and I don't mean to, I don't want to. I'm trying to answer why I got so upset. That is the best I can do. I'm sure nothing will change and no one, especially the people involved in this show, will learn anything. After all, I'm just one person, I'm just a girl. I'm not looking to debate. I'm just telling what I felt. I don't want to argue about it. I don't want this to get ugly. I'm sorry if I upset anyone with this post. Thanks for asking why I was so upset and for being caring. I do appreciate it. I don't know what else to say. ETA: I do not hate the actors, or anyone else involved in that show. It's just what I felt at the moment. I know sometimes TV shows, movies or songs are going to upset me, either through deliberation, ignorance or plain oversights, or simply by not thinking things through. Nevertheless, it doesn't change how I feel. I feel this show was reckless, careless, callous, and irresponsible. That is really the bottom line of my anger and disgust. I know the repeated "If you don't help, what kind of person are you" was not meant to be directed at people (like me) who did care or did try to help. It was just the frivilous in the way it was used that upset me. Like I said, you can help all you want, and sometimes it still it won't matter. And even if you don't help, it still won't matter. I hope that makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by domenicaflor on May 3, 2005 12:03:25 GMT -5
NicoleMarie:
My condolences on the loss of your brother. Thank you for taking the time to explain your feelings regarding this episode.
I may have a different opinion of the episode, but I certainly comprehend your perspective on it. As I have said before on other threads, I think that openness and respect of others are hallmarks of this board, and I hope that you find the same.
Your choice to continue posting on this message board or any other LOCI message boards is yours to make. If you feel that the show has offended you to the point of leaving the fanbase, then that is certainly your prerogative.
I would like to make a suggestion, which is only a suggestion based upon what I would do. Seeing that you feel so deeply about this episode, why don't you copy your post into a letter directed to Gerry Conway and Rene Balcer explaining eveything that you said to us? Then hold the letter aside for one week, or even two weeks. Open it up again, and if you still feel as strongly that the episode was irresponsible and offensive, send it off to him with a self-addressed stamped envelope included. Send a separate copy to Conway, because the it is likely that there is less mail volume going to him than Balcer. Copy Dick Wolf on the letter as well. You may never get a response back, but just the act of writing and sending the letters may make you feel better and give you more closure.
Please understand that this is neither a trite nor "canned" response. If I felt as strongly, I would put hands to keyboard/pen to paper about it.
D.
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on May 3, 2005 23:42:16 GMT -5
While I agree that this episode didn't trivialize or make a joke out of suicide, I can understand how someone personally affected by this tragedy might have a different and most likely negative impression afterward. I hope that anyone who was distressed by "No Exit" can come to terms with his or her feelings. Perhaps time will help those sensitive viewers see this episode in a more objective light.
Having said that, my reaction to "No Exit" is that is was an average episode. I like some parts but certainly do not "love" it or consider it anywhere close to my favorite all time CI episodes.
What I like most is how the subject of Bell's palsy was treated. I myself was afflicted in 1999, and the medical diagnosis then was that it was a delayed reaction to my experiences in the military. BP is horrible, and for months afterward I endured the self-conscious helplessness of not being in control of my facial expressions, could not eat or drink anything without wearing a "bib" to prevent accidents, etc. BP migrated from one side of my face to the other, and even now, nearly six years later, I still do not have 100% control of my facial muscles. I cannot smile without looking like I'm smirking, so I avoid smiling which is emotionally painful since I want to smile a lot of the time.
Back to the episode. I agree Hubert Skoller is the most sympathetic character. How tragic that he projected his feelings of impotence and rage that he felt for Timmons against Carmine, luring him into a death to look like a suicide. And Edie's prior suicide in response to Timmons' advances did not quite ring true. In the real world, she could have and should have sued the pants off her boss. I certainly hope that in the aftermath of Skoller's revelations, Edie's parents can pursue their lawsuit again and ruin Timmons completely. And ADA Carver should get in some really good legal licks if he can put together a criminal case based on Timmons' obstruction of justice and perjury.
|
|
|
Post by NicoleMarie on May 4, 2005 0:40:51 GMT -5
Part of me thinks I should have kept my thoughts and my reactions off the board but I felt it was important for them to be expressed. I can understand that someone would think I am directing my angst towards to the show and am not being objective. I expressed my outrage in a purely emotional fashion. While that wave has passed, my disgust and outrage has not. I have moved into the "I'm gonna do something about it, try to do something about it productive now" mode. I will repeat I felt this show was reckless, careless, callous, and irresponsible. Again, that is really the bottom line of my anger and disgust. Enough to decide with a clear head to still stop watching the series. Dom, We had the same ideas. The letters were sent Monday. I too, doubt I will ever recieve answer but, at least I tried. At this point what I intially felt doesn't matter anymore because what happened, happened, and I cannot change anything. What I can do, and did do, was try to make sure no one else will ever have the kind of reaction to a show like I did. They gave me their point of view, so I'm giving them mine. I know very well I could never recieve an explanation or full closure from this. I can't pick up the phone and call and say "WTF were you thinking?!" Nevertheless, just trying is enough for me. I think I've said all I need to say, and anything more will be repetition. I will answer anyone elses' questions if asked but, otherwise, I am staying away from this side of the boards. Thanks for everyone's patience and kind words. I'll shut up now. LOL!
|
|
|
Post by Metella on May 4, 2005 7:39:25 GMT -5
I think you will get a response from someone in answer to you letter.
I think you should express your feelings, if you are still interested in being a part of this board community; then you should express all your feelings, thoughts etc in relation to the show.
I think ALL your gut responses are correct for you and in this raw time so close to your struggle and sorrow.
However, from someone who has not had to deal with a loved one in this turmoil; I actually take the opposite view. I know you said you didn't want to debate & I am NOT trying to change your mind. I think you are right in all your feelings.
If you don't want to read further, as it may make you angry; please stop here at this post.
For a general discussion of how well CI did with the subject of suicide compared to the incest in another episode (where again, the subject matter touched members here personally):
Edie was shown as loved young woman. She was loved by her family; she was admired and like by co-workers .... so much so that lies against her were a catalyst for Hubert to strike back at the boss who orchestrated the whole thing.
The other fellow in the car, Huntington's disease not only has no cure, it is painful, humiliating and advances quickly, many many people with this disease end their own lives once the disease progresses - not all of this was spelled out - perhaps a few more seconds with the mother in the hospital bed?
The couple, I found that at their age it was not realistic. If they were still teens living at home, then I may have bought it. So for me, these two were just filler and may have been better to leave them out and spend more time on the Huntington Guy.
After the train crash; they went after all involved; beyond what I have seen real life DA's do ect and that was a show of CI's seriousness. Eames showed true contempt at the website guy. Goren got emotional, Carver stepped up and pushed - all this showed a caring to ensure this didn't happen again.
I think they did a very good job in the 42 minutes of having suicide in an episode plot without just "using" it; they filled it out with some compassion.
Perhaps at the end, with such a serious subject; a hot line/prevention line and website for family support would have been in order - I know many shows that flash those kinds of things after an emotionally draining show.
|
|
|
Post by popularlibrary on May 4, 2005 12:57:13 GMT -5
Well, this is one that needs some rewatching, because it was more layered than usual, and thick with emotional cross-wiring. It's nice to have Gerry Conway back up to speed.
No Exit, huh? Hell was certainly other people here. Hubert Skoller (a brilliant performance by Arye Gross) is lost in guilt, lashing out to'make things right,' but still too crippled to focus his fury and self-loathing on either his boss or himself directly. He makes a surrogate of the boy who is Skoller the loyal subordinate in embryo, and tricks him into the 'suicide' Skoller can't perform on himself. The entire net of lies, sadistic bullying, cringing self-protection, and blind self-deception finally pulls everyone down.
I think this is far less a story about the conscienceless abuse of power by Boss Timmons, than it's a tale about what willing slavery to win favors from the master does to the psyches of the slaves. It's been pointed out elsewhere that perhaps the most terribel result of abuse and slavery is the way it deforms the souls of the victims. To me, that is what this episode is most concerned with. And the Suicide web site was presented as a sideline form of abuse, a preying on the pain of the desperate. I don't know if Conway had politics at the back of his mind, or the minions who go along with corporate corruption, but you couldn't help hearing the echoes.
A nice tribute to Sarte's view of the human feeding ground.
Elena
|
|
|
Post by Observer2 on May 4, 2005 17:15:49 GMT -5
Techguy, I’m so sorry you’ve had to deal with lingering after-effects from Bell’s Palsy, along with everything else! Your case sounds like it was unusually bad – it’s unusual for it to migrate to the other side, like that, and most cases resolve in a few months to around a year. Ironically, your PTSD may have not only have helped bring it on, it may also have impaired your body’s ability to recover from it. It sounds as though, for you, it’s been much more like the effects on the face of a severe stroke, except it has affected both sides of your face. What a horrible thing to have to deal with. I don’t know how good the Veteran’s Administration is with treatment for this kind of thing. In any case, here are a couple of websites you might be interested in. One is a forum, where people exchange comments on their own experiences... including experiences with different forms of treatment. (Don’t be thrown off by the large message in bold type that says “Posts about Bell’s Palsy are not permitted in this forum...” – that only refers to the section of the forum where they deal with questions about how to use the site.) That forum is at: forum.bellspalsy.wsThe other is a website that’s focused on a form of treatment for long-term after-effects. It’s a kind of treatment that actually takes into account the structure of facial muscles, and the different ways different kinds of nerves affect them. Although I’ve never had to deal with Bell’s Palsy, I’m very familiar with the difference between the way expressions look when generated by conscious intent vs when they are generated by automatic reactions to emotions. This difference has to do with the different kinds of nerves that control the muscles of the face. Most attempts at treatment/facial retraining for after-effects of Bell’s palsy don’t address this issue. If you haven’t tried the kind of treatment described on this website, you might want to research it and consider trying it out. The use of a biofeedback-type system makes a great deal of sense with what I know about retraining neural pathways. The website is: www.bellspalsy.ws/printretrain.htmIn any case, Techguy, I hope you have at least some friends and family with whom you can relax and smile. I’ve known people with various types of disfigurements, after-effects from strokes, and facial distortions from cerebral palsy; so I know from personal experience that it’s possible for friends who know you well and understand the nature of your condition to recognize your true feelings shining through, even if your muscles don’t behave correctly. And allowing your emotions to express themselves through your face is not only important for your emotional well-being, it may also be important to the retraining of those damaged neural pathways.
|
|
|
Post by Sirenna on May 4, 2005 20:16:10 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear about that too, Techguy but please don't stop smiling because you feel as though it comes off as a smirk! I'm serious, you'll shut yourself off to meeting people who might be friendly or sympathetic. I know stranger-smiling on the street might be out for now but if it's at work or other regular gatherings, and you're genuinely smiling but thinking it looks like a smirk, maybe you could just tell the people you feel comfortable with that you have a bit of temporary paralysis and to please bear with you.
I think it would be a shame, but wholly understandable, for you to feel and be cut off at certain times socially because of this. But the shame would be for them not to get to know you simply because you can't communicate an open friendly smile to them right now. You have so much to offer people.
Look at me, I'm postng about a smile but as a very shy person I've learnt what power a smile has to change your life. It opens up lines of communication with people that can lead to great things!
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on May 4, 2005 20:36:12 GMT -5
NicoleMarie, please reconsider and stay and continue to express your feelings. I wish I could have expressed myself better regarding your situation. I really do hope you get a response to your letters. At the very least, writing about how this episode affected you might help you release whatever negative feelings you experienced afterward. And I also really hope that with time, the pain you are feeling will subside and you will begin to heal. I also hope you will continue as a member of this board community and post again.
Thank you Observer, for providing the websites about Bell's palsy. I also want to thank you and Sirenna for your words of encouragement and support. I am blessed with loving family and friends who see past my facial abnormalities and accept me for the person I am. My discomfort comes in social situations where I meet people for the first time. It is awkward to have to constantly explain why I look the way I do. I am especially uncomfortable when photos are taken at social functions and even family gatherings. I tend to go to the back of the group so my face isn't so visible. I just can't smile for the camera or much anything else. However, I do want to say that I have been helped somewhat by acupuncture, which has diminished the effects and appearance of a lot of the droopiness in my face so there has been some modest positive results. I will look into the information you provided, Observer. I remain optimistic despite the hand that fate has dealt me.
|
|
KMC
Rookie
Posts: 24
|
Post by KMC on May 5, 2005 10:12:02 GMT -5
I wasn't going to get into this...but. NicoleMarie, if you are still here....and you are not in some sort of therapy or counseling...please get youself there without delay. The strength of your reaction to this episode tells me that you have issues that you need to resolve (anger, guilt, etc.) Sending letters the the people behind this episode may help you vent...but that's not going to help in the long run. You may think it's none of my business...and you're right...but I know people who are going through what you are....and talking to someone trained to help you deal with this type of loss can help.
As someone who has been at the brink of self-destruction a number of times in her life...just about the only thing that kept me alive is the thought of the damage my death would cause to those I would leave behind. I've finally be diagnosed with severe clinical depression and am being treated...but at 46 I can't help thinking of all the time I've lost to it through the years....and the close calls. I can't help thinking if I had stumbled across a web site like the one shown in the ep....would it have been the final push?
|
|
|
Post by domenicaflor on May 5, 2005 17:38:46 GMT -5
Perhaps at the end, with such a serious subject; a hot line/prevention line and website for family support would have been in order - I know many shows that flash those kinds of things after an emotionally draining show. Good question, Metella. I don't remember ever seeing one of those flash public-service messages after LOCI. But I think I do remember some used on SVU and the Mothership. However, I am not a super-fan of those shows and my memory may be bad. Does anyone remember seeing those messages on the L&O franchise? D.
|
|
|
Post by NikkiGreen on May 5, 2005 21:17:56 GMT -5
I've never seen any public service announcements. Most of the episodes I've seen are from the CTV's signal, but I doubt they'd over-ride any PSA's.
|
|
KMC
Rookie
Posts: 24
|
Post by KMC on May 6, 2005 10:20:37 GMT -5
No, I don't recall seeing any PSAs for any of the series. I just don't think Wolf & Co. are into that. They're doing drama...not Lifetime Network stuff. Though considering the content of SVU...a few after-the-ep lists of national rape crisis centers or domestic violence hotlines, etc., would not come amiss.
Some of the L&O people do those PSAs that NBC does...but a lot of the NBC people do. I haven't seen any of the CI group do them.
|
|