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Post by Patcat on Sept 26, 2005 9:42:51 GMT -5
I don't think Nicole is "redeemed"--one good act does not equal redemption. But the one good act does perhaps justify Goren's belief that the "sparkling little girl"--or a tiny part of her--still exists in her.
It's interesting that Nicole came, in a sense, to Goren to get help for Gwen, that she recognized that he'd have the intelligence and skills to protect her.
Patcat
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Post by BegToDiffer on Sept 26, 2005 10:44:04 GMT -5
I am once again disgusted with the Nicole storyline. The only good thing I liked about it was that someone (the dad) finally pulled one over on her and she never saw it coming.
For a show that continually professes to not go the route of SOAP, this storyline screams it! Nicole, suddenly trying to be a good person, this is hard to swallow. And you know there will be more, just by the phone message at the end. Once again, Goren screwed things up for Nicole was the message I got. The longer they drag her on, the soapier it will get. UGH!
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Post by NicoleMarie on Sept 26, 2005 10:56:07 GMT -5
Trisha: Thank you, you're a doll! It's a sticky place to be in, being in the monority. It's hard to discuss without feeling like I'm harping, being repetitive, or just downright irritating! LOL!!!!
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Shadow
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 77
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Post by Shadow on Sept 26, 2005 11:17:09 GMT -5
NicoleMarie You could never be iritating...lol You have your opinion, and that's what it's all about..If we all felt the same way about everything....How BORING it would be.. At least the subject has brought some lively discussion to the board...and that's great...Remember there is no right or wrong...only individual opinions....and that is great ;D ;D ;D Shadow
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Post by Metella on Sept 26, 2005 11:42:24 GMT -5
SOAP Got in my Eyes. Disgusted with the storyline as Beg to Differ said. I didn't enjoy one minute of this plot. Only enjoyed the Logan scenes.
D'Abo gave a Wonderful perfomance. She did excellent. But the character is unbelievable. If she was begging Goren for help on that bench, she would have been more forceful in getting his help; not sigh and walk away.
Wanting to put it all behind and move on? I can buy that, not the way it came to be and not how easy she gave it up after one convo w/Goren.
Soap and trash. I will pretend this episode doesn't exist so that I can continue to watch the Goren episodes.
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Post by LOCIfan on Sept 26, 2005 11:48:10 GMT -5
NicoleMarie,
Your opinions are entirely valid!! Never fear! I wasn't even trying to convince you of anything -- just stating how the legal system works re: double jeopardy and then blatantly speculating as to where the writers' heads were at re: the citizenship stuff...
Well, the season's certainly off to a bang! I can't wait to see what's coming with the non-Nicole/"regular" episodes this season! They're the ones I really like. Will also have to give the Logan episodes a look-see.
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Post by Patcat on Sept 26, 2005 11:57:13 GMT -5
Yes, NM, your opinions, and anyone else who argues them reasonably, are perfectly valid.
Patcat
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jaquetta
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 171
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Post by jaquetta on Sept 26, 2005 16:41:34 GMT -5
Well, I'll certainly have to rewatch Grow because I didn't catch most of what you guys did. In fact, I wasn't going to watch it at all because of stupid Nicole Wallace.........but I was weak. C'mon. VDO. Chris Noth. What's a girl to do? So I tuned in late, flipped during the commercials and watched the end this morning (I taped it. Of course). I just thought that having NW wasn't as horrible as I expected (I was going to hurl things at my TV if she psychobabbled "Bibby") and I completely expected her to be killing poor little Gwen so the fact that she was actually protecting her completely blindsided me (evidently blinding me to the rest of the plot. Or lack thereof). Pay for her crimes? Pay? When those enabling victims got in the way of her murder weapon? Don't start me on the glorification of killers and glossing over of the victims. Yes, NM, your opinions, and anyone else who argues them reasonably, are perfectly valid.
Wait. They have to be reasonable? I don't know if I'm up to that standard.....
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Post by Observer2 on Sept 26, 2005 23:11:00 GMT -5
I still don’t like the fact that a network exec and a bunch of fans decided to overrule Balcer. On the other hand, I have to say that I enjoyed this episode enough that I’m ready to forgive them for it.
As a side note, I like the way Logan was integrated into the episode, setting up for next week. Deakins’ attitude towards him is interesting... cashing favors to get him; but at the same time doing a little testing/assessing of him (though already taking a CO/supportive attitude, encouraging him to cope well with the testing), and wanting to keep a close eye on him. It’ll be interesting, watching how Deakins deals with Logan as the season unfolds. He seems to see potential in him... as well as the possibility of problems.
D’Abo did some really excellent acting in this ep. The moment when Goren comes up behind Wallace in the library, and she knows who it is, and says “I’m still here...” that was telling. A good combination of writing and portrayal. Very nicely done. I also especially liked the shifts in her affect after she got out on bail. They were just right... especially that last one. It told me something was up. It was incongruous with what we thought was going on. Yet it didn’t give away just what it was that was going on. Of course, once Goren caught on, and explained it to Eames (and through her, to the audience), it made perfect sense.
And that exchange between Goren and Eames, when he figured it out and she suggested he might be wrong, was really nice, demonstrating some of the maturing of their characters and their partnership since POI.
I don’t understand how anyone watching that episode could say that Goren was letting Wallace off the hook or being manipulated by her. He hit her with the truth. Again. And she wasn’t able to maintain some of her denials.
And I don’t understand the talk about Goren “choking back tears in front of his peers.” Excuse me, but I must have missed that scene. There *was* a scene at the end, with Goren alone in a side room, as Eames left (with her back to him, by the way), when he rubbed his eyes, as he sometimes does. Then he quickly wiped one eye, a gesture no one outside the room would have seen, then turned and walked out. No witnesses to any hint of a tear except the audience.
Whether Wallace’s pain, her letting go of Gwen, and the dynamics of her and Goren’s relationship, should have had that much effect on him... well, some people may think not, but it made sense to me.
Wallace’s behavior in this episode also made sense to me. This was no sudden turn-around or redemption. It was a classic attempt to get from a child the love, acceptance and validation that she needed from her parents and didn’t get. Wallace is still what she has always been, a wounded child, damaged and twisted by things that were done to her when she was too young to have any chance of coping with them.
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Post by Techguy on Sept 26, 2005 23:17:03 GMT -5
NicoleMarie, BegToDiffer, Metella, and I are starting our very own quartet, backing up Elton John on tour next time he sings "The B***h Is Back." Not a gig I personally would have chosen, I would have preferred something along the lines of "Death Becomes Her."
BTW, the tape did not self-destruct as I hoped so I used it to record "Chinoiserie" from USA.
Techguy, *not-so-secretly wishing it was "Cherry Red" instead*
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Post by LOCIfan on Sept 27, 2005 1:18:52 GMT -5
Thanks Observer, for stating so elequently what I felt while watching the episode. I've never had a terribly strong love/hate relationship with Nicole, but did feel that Nicole/D'Abo's performance blended well with what has come before. I also don't feel she was "redeemed" rather, that she saw herself clearly (for the first time we've seen) because of Goren's relentless chipping away at her defenses. NW's tenderness toward Gwen was something I found entirely in character for Nicole's character. As was Goren's disgust and fear concernign what that tenderness would ultimately -- and inevitably turn into (i.e. homicide).
I did not think Goren let Nicole off the hook for anything. Rather, he held up a very unforgiving mirror to her true self. And it shattered her. Nicole has always been a deformed, mutilated child. From day 1, that's what she was. Goren has always understood that, and yet it doesn't blind him to her heinous actions....
Still, the most interesting aspects of the show for me had to do with the way in which Logan was integrated into the major case squad. I'm looking forward to next week's episode ALMOST as much as i'm looking forward to the next Goren ep!
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Post by mimi1802 on Sept 27, 2005 8:42:16 GMT -5
Well,
I think that the "Criminal intent" part of the brand was well presented in this episode.
Can't say the same for the Law & Order parts.
Very ordinary episode on the police procedurals where the basics were thrown out the window (at the least I would've expected a surveillance team to watch what Wallace was up to) and on the judicial part where we were led to believe that there was no way the DA could prosecute Wallace for Ella's death.
Season 5 picked up where season 4 left off.
Techguy is there room for another singer?
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Post by popularlibrary on Sept 27, 2005 9:05:04 GMT -5
Thanks Observer! An instruction and a delight to read, as always. While Grow doesn't seem to me one of the great episodes, it was an interesting one, and a clever insight into Nicole's continued attempts to reassemble her shattered psyche. She has always, from her first appearance, tried to create substitute 'families' to anchor herself, beginning with her professor-lover in Anti-thesis. Sometimes she protects these bits of wish fulfillment and someimes she turns on them, depending on the situation, but always, she finds someone to fill her vast craving for the love she doesn't understand and can never really give.
It is a fascinating psychological battle to watch, and the writers have exploited it well. Goren acts as her relentless antagonist, exposing her self-deceptions, refusing her their cover and their self-justification, and cutting, like a surgeon operating without anasthetic, to find what may be left of the original personality, the 'sparkling little girl.'
In Grow, where the murder of her daughter is at issue in the failed attempt to get her indicted and extradited to Australia, her latching onto a new daughter is given a clear context. Indeed, her obsession distracts her from the manipulations of the girl's father and allows her to be used as she rarely is. But Nicole's capacity to understand others tends to be limited to a knowledge of how to exploit their weaknesses. That Goren forces her to realize she cannot be a parent to Gwen is a very small crack in her wall of self-deception, and one she promptly blames on him.
I also found it dramatically and psychologically true, and a tribute to the writers' refusing to keep the character static. And I wonder if Logan's reaction to her indicates that her next appearance may involve him.
Elena
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Post by Metella on Sept 27, 2005 10:02:46 GMT -5
mimi1802 .... let's start a chorus .... hope she goes off with .... Ba ba ba Benny and the Jets.
Elena - I do agree that many of her entanglements are attempts to create a family - but the connection with the female professor seemed only a climb on the ladder to citizenship to me. I didn't see any real long term plans for that chick.
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Post by lewren on Sept 27, 2005 10:31:46 GMT -5
Please help me here, but did Nicole die last season? I am thorougly confused. I was glad to see her gone, and now I find her resurrected. Somehow I don't think she's a candidate for resurrection.
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