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Post by Observer2 on Sept 28, 2005 13:44:53 GMT -5
Nicole Marie; I have to admit, I have a problem with the fact that everyone ignored the fact Nicole killed Ella in view of several police--but perhaps because it was dark--nah. Patcat, You’re confusing the two endings of Great Barrier. In the ending in which several police actually saw Nicole cut Ella’s throat, Goren shot Nicole and killed her. In the ending in which Nicole lived – which became the official ending, and is part of the background for Grow – no one saw what happened between Nicole and Ella. The police ran into the building, but by the time they got up the stairs the room was empty, the window was broken, and there was blood on the floor, which later turned out to be Nicole’s blood. There were no eyewitnesses. There was nothing but circumstantial evidence and their knowledge of Nicole to prove that she actually killed Ella. Her lawyer’s alternative scenario might well have created enough reasonable doubt to get her acquitted.
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Post by Patcat on Sept 28, 2005 14:01:47 GMT -5
Observer;
You're right--you've lived up to your name. That clears that up, and I thank you.
There is still the question of where she got the bail money, although I suppose a bail bondsman might have handled it.
Patcat
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Post by NicoleMarie on Sept 28, 2005 14:26:12 GMT -5
Wallace’s lawyer said that Ella’s throat was cut by the broken glass of the window – a perfectly reasonable possibility, if Ella had actually chosen to jump through the window with Wallace. People who jump through plate glass windows often get cut pretty badly. If Wallace had stuck around for her trial, that lawyer might well have gotten her an acquittal on Ella’s death. I'm going to kick this horse one more time by stepping into what could be Carvers' shoes to dispute Wallace's lawyer and give grounds more solid for a indictment/conviction than the lawyer could provide for grounds for acquittal. According to Great Barrier, the one where she lived, the police wrere listening to the exchange between Nicole and Ella. Nicole found the listening device on Ella, and Ella began screaming. Nicole was clearly trying to hurt Ella, because Ella began screaming and shreiking. Rodgers told Goren and Eames (paraphrased) "Nicole dug her fingers in pretty deep, her windpipe was crushed, she didn't stand a chance when she hit the water", so it was more than just glass that killed Ella. IMO, there is more evidence to convict Nicole, rather than acquit her. Damn, I'm getting techinal again!!!
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Post by mimi1802 on Sept 28, 2005 14:41:38 GMT -5
What would have been the justification for that use of the department’s limited resources? The justification would be that if Deakins asked his detectives to pull an all-nighter to catch an alleged robber...who might have a link with the murder of an appraisal in "Silver Lining"; I might then, be entitled to think that a possible multiple murderer could have the same "privilege" . Especially one who has a great ability to play with the system. I'm just drawing conclusions from past episode experiences.
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Post by mimi1802 on Sept 28, 2005 14:47:51 GMT -5
They *were* prosecuting her for Ella’s death. Really!!! I must have sneezed during that scene...or it's the fact that the bail was set at 1 million dollars and she was out in a snap that got me confused, because I was under the impression that all charges were dropped...my bad!
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Post by NikkiGreen on Sept 28, 2005 14:58:45 GMT -5
..There is still the question of where she got the bail money... She was married to a pretty wealthy man. I'm sure she would have been paid a great deal to be out of his life for good. And then there's all those diamonds she and Ella stole.
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Post by Beaglebabes on Sept 28, 2005 16:03:31 GMT -5
I loved the episode. I think all the episodes with Wallace and Goren have been great. Sorry!
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Post by Sirenna on Sept 28, 2005 20:18:18 GMT -5
JD: don't apologise for your opinion. It makes me itch to attack it (even though I agree with it!)
Trisha: At least when I pee around starting an episode I talk about the weather...
I also liked the episode and, believe me, I was determined not to.
They (the writers) skirted the edge of disaster by making N/E a sympathetic figure, if only for five minutes but they did and it worked.
I very much loved the scene with Goren and Nicole in the library the second time. To say he was brutish towards would be to admit I felt a little bit sorry for her. How could that be after Great Barrier when I wholeheartedly hoped she'd disappear for good?! It was great writing.
That scene demonstrated a lot about their characters and about the only resolution this war could have. They are two halves of one force in the same way a powerful magnet works. The positive forces of their personalities bind them, inexorably, together like their intelligence, their extreme sense of right and wrong, their singlemindedness, their trauma (yes, it has it positive elements. It made him a great detective and compassionate and it made her protect the little girl.)
The negative forces like their singlemindedness, their childhood trauma, their moral compass (wait, those are the same things...) these are always going to pit them against each other. This episode really brought out how alike they are and why that means they are perfect enemies.
It was gooood.
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Post by Techguy on Sept 28, 2005 23:47:06 GMT -5
Techguy is there room for another singer? We now officially have a solid quintet on the way to becoming an unstoppable Greek chorus!The one thing I don't think I could forgive is if TPTB use Nicole to write Bobby of the show (shudder). Beyond Dial. Beyond Irish Spring. Beyond Lever 2000. So far beyond any industrial strength anti-bacterial sudser you can come up with, you end up dirty rather than clean.
Beyond belief actually. Somehow I don't think she's a candidate for resurrection. Nicole Wallace "helping" Det. Goren with a case is sort of like having Hannibal Lecter "help" make the arrangements for a dinner party. Will someone pass the fava beans during the "Grow" rerun on USA?
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Post by Metella on Sept 29, 2005 6:22:28 GMT -5
Even grease cutting Lava won't clean this one up. Sure they skirted around issues - but why have to skirt at all? I'm still disgusted they won't let this one go. Narcissistic love - projected in their Nicole - an image created with care and effort -that fell short of Nemesis & they are too much in love to see this - so they keep her prominent.
As for procedural issues; they may not have the $ or manpower to watch everyone - BUT you KNOW cops love to keep kids safe & with Gwen in jeopardy - they would have had a tail if not even tried to have youth services take her to a temporary home.
Come on, one has to admit there is some artistic license in this episode & that is not a negative thing; it just is - has to be for this plot to grind forward & has to be for many of the plots (even excellent ones) to move forward.
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Post by janetcatbird on Sept 29, 2005 10:36:31 GMT -5
I think it interesting how Nicole was being suckered by the guy you wouldn't expect, karma returns and all that. I mena, geeky quiet little widower, whoda thought? I think that's what woke her up--we've always seen her go after weak people, but she's always felt totally in control of the situation. Chapel may have looked weak, but he was manipulating everything and Nicole realized, "Oh shoot, I can't handle someone so similar to me".
As to her "redemption" (if you want to call it that), it was selfish in nature. She was trying to prove "See, I'm a good person, watch me help Gwen!". And of course the desire for unconditional love and acceptance. There had to be something deep down that made her fond of Gwen, but how much was Gwen as a person or my-chance-to-play-Mommy is up for debate. You just feel so sorry for Gwen--her Dad's trying to murder her, the person who was protecting her and giving her a boost turns out to be a murderer who runs out on her...hopefully that aunt in Phoenix will be a better enivronment for the poor kid. Andwith any luck, the lotion didn't have enough time to cause damage.
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Post by Sirenna on Sept 29, 2005 16:50:13 GMT -5
The nicole goren thing is soap in the sense that it's a continuation of a story that should have ended a while back. And, ok, it's soap in the sense that she pelted herself out of a window and into the wide brown Hudson. (That was a preposterous escape!)But the story itself in Grow was not soapy. I didn't see that nicole was redeemed at all. she was always, in Goren's eyes, an abused little girl who grew up into a first class psychopath. That sadness was always in her. In Anti-thesis Goren raked it up to make her confess to the string of murders in Thailand. He used her trauma to find some good in her in an endeavour prick her conscience to solve his case.
In Grow, he used her abuse to underline the fact, to Nicole who was in denial, that she is bad as a result of what was done to her as a child. That she was the victim of someone else's perversion makes no difference to who she is now. Part of her is evil now and incapable of looking after anyone, no matter how much she may want to. Goren really hit her with this fact and it was painful to watch. He used her past again against her to make her confess in order to solve his case. Didn't Eames rebuke him after he figured out it was Nicole who orchestrated the murder by saying " don't look so happy something something something." (I gotta watch the episode again later.)
He was much more ruthless, cunning and cold towards her than she was towards anyone else in this episode including himself but she was by no means good. Although in contrast to his ruthlessness she came off as the sympathetic character.
I say again this was great writing - in other words manipulation at it's finest.
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Post by Cassie on Sept 29, 2005 20:35:06 GMT -5
The episode reminded me of the movie “Grand Canyon” with Kevin Kline , JoBeth Williams, The gist of that movie is that fate, brought certain people into their lives….even just for a brief moment,... to save someone from walking out into traffic. Was Goren brought into Nicole’s life to help enlighten her……Hey, I didn’t ask for the soap. Like everyone else I voted for Nicole to die in Great Barrier. But I was pleasantly surprised by it. They showed that Nicole had a soul. That she was attempting to battle her demons within. I liked that. They don’t have to bring her back. I am sure they will. My only request is that its not the Series Finale. One of them is going to have to end up dead to finish this soap opera out properly and I hope its not Goren or Eames
Does anyone know would Nicole be considered a Serial Killer? I have been thinking about that the last couple of days. I have always thought that Serial Killers, where ritualistic, sexual killings. Nicole was an accomplice with her boyfriend in Thailand. He did the actual killings. Every other murder that she committed seems to have a different reason. Sure self-preservation is at the core of her murders. But she is not a neat, methodical killer like Jay Lippman from the episode “Yesterday”. who was called a Serial Killer. Mr. Jones from the “Jones” episode was I think called a “Spree Killer” He went off on a cleaning up spree to get rid of his girlfriends. So what does that make Nicole?
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Post by trisha on Sept 30, 2005 8:59:57 GMT -5
I wouldn't call Nicole a serial killer because that does connote a ritualistic nature to the killing. I would call her a psychopathic killer because she shows no remorse, or even acceptance of blame. She exhibits many of the tell-tale signs of psychopathy.
This is the main reason I have a hard time buying her wanting to save or raise Gwen out of any kind of actual kindness or empathy. She's a narcissist. I'll grant that her abuse may have stunted her psychological growth, rendering her an emotional child. Children are, for the most part, narcissistic, but even so, they're still capable of empathy. Nicole has not shown one bit of empathy toward anyone until Gwen, and I wonder if she's only doing it to prove that she's not what Goren has been telling her she is.
She went to great lengths to prove to him that he can be wrong before, and keeps coming back to him so he'll see that sparkling little girl. But he keeps telling her that little girl was destroyed, in part by her father, and in part by the monster that she became to survive what he had done to her.
I liked this episode because of its ambiguity. I guess we'll have to wait for the next episode to see if Nicole is capable of empathy and selflessness, or if she's still fixated on Goren and using whatever means necessary to get him to see her the way she wants him to see her.
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Post by Cassie on Sept 30, 2005 16:15:50 GMT -5
I wonder if she's only doing it to prove that she's not what Goren has been telling her she is. I wonder if she knows thats she is doing that..... Thanks Trisha, that was all very insightful.....I think your right on the money, honey
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