Post by Summerfield on Oct 13, 2005 18:13:35 GMT -5
Observer...I too kind of wonder what he/they were thinking with the choice. Then again...maybe he/they under estimated the intelligence of their viewers. To the causual viewer, the song would fo unnoticed or forgotten. Hello...maybe it's time someone from the show visits fan sites...no?
As a young piano student of a very nice but old lady, I learned to play and sing what I thought then were all of Stephen Foster's works. However, I"ve never heard of the Shanghai chicken song. I, too, would like to know the significance behind choosing it for Goren to sing while scouting out the house. If I come up with anything, I'll pass it on.
maybe it's a simple question of economics. bye-bye-blackbird isn't in the public domain (very few songs are) and using it costs money. Stephen Foster's works are in the public domain, for use gratis.
...To the casual viewer, the song would go unnoticed or forgotten...
I think I’m starting to get it now... thanks, guys!
I’ve never had to deal with the legal aspects of using music, so I might never have thought of the piece of the puzzle that Nick5oh came up with. But once you mention it, it makes perfect sense.
So they may have needed a song that was in the public domain. And if the legal question didn’t get raised until they were entering production, they may not have had a whole lot of time to locate one. Foster’s music is easy to track down, but that particular piece is so obscure that two of us who are familiar with his songs didn’t recognize it. So, for probably upwards of 99% of the audience, as long as Goren stuck to the innocuous parts of the chorus, there was nothing offensive, and no association with Foster or his problematic qualities. It was just an anonymous, odd little song – that’s all it was to me, until someone else’s question got me wondering about it.
And of course, that’s the other benefit of that song... it’s odd. An odd little song, to go with the odd clothes and the odd little dance. So it does make sense... to all but the very few viewers who just had to go and figure out exactly what song that was. So maybe there *is* such a thing as being too obsessive about figuring out every little detail... nah! It just means we have to work a little harder, and keep asking questions, until it gets to the point where it *does* make sense!
Last Edit: Oct 14, 2005 13:15:35 GMT -5 by Observer2
“No photographs. How are you gonna amuse yourself?”
“I don’t know. No plaques or degrees, either.”
“Believe it or not, *some* people don’t like to show off.”
Now, that was an interesting scene.
Someone said Eames was being almost B***hy there. I wouldn’t put it that strongly... but it is one of the few areas where Eames just doesn’t ‘get’ Goren. We’ve seen that kind of thing before. Along with a number of viewers, Eames sometimes seems to see Goren as a bit of a “know it all.” And in this case, she said something that not only wasn’t fair, but also probably hit a bit close to home.
Goren does not show off about his intelligence or his wide range of knowledge. He uses them to solve cases; and very rarely he indulges in the pure pleasure of immersing himself in learning some new pattern or complex concept (in Chinoiserie, for instance, and in Probability). But the only time he ever “showed off” his knowledge was when the arrogant boyfriend in Suite Sorrow slighted his estimate of what a hotel might be worth. Goren retaliated with condescension over the guy’s grammar (that was very revealing – the fact that he was so affected by the upper-class guy’s arrogance that he felt a need to retaliate). And in Bright Boy he may have come very close to explaining a bit about intelligence to the kid’s father. But he restrained himself.
Goren not only doesn’t show off about his intelligence, he comes up with all sorts of excuses to minimize and disparage his intellectual accomplishments. He was at Oxford? Oh, well, he was just there ‘chasing coeds.’ He read the Koran? Hey, he only did it to impress a girl. And each time that he covers with that kind of excuse you can see the stress in his expression and body language, and you can hear it in his voice. This is a big issue for Goren. Big enough that I strongly suspect it comes from some reaction that his mother had to his intelligence as she felt her grasp on her own mind slipping away.
Which is why I said that Eames’ comment – while completely in-character – was not only unfair, but may have hit too close to home. Eames is someone he trusts on an emotional level. It may be hard for him to deal with it, when she echoes that kind of unfair and hurtful reaction to his intelligence. In this scene he certainly tensed up, crossed his arms and turned away from her. But the most striking thing about his reaction is that it seemed to take him out of his competent mode of looking around the room, as he had been doing a moment before, and throw him into a withdrawn, regressive mode, that he only pulled out of when she suggested he check out the books she had spotted.
The intensity of his reaction was interesting enough that it prompted me to finally go to Kinko’s so I could see (and almost hear, on their feeble sound system) the interview with D’Onofrio and Noth, where D’Onofrio talked about Goren going slowly insane. I hope he doesn’t mean literally, technically insane... but in any case I suspect it’s going to be an “interesting” season...
I do think that Goren uses his knowledge mostly to solve cases. Yet, I have a strong feeling that even though he tries really hard not sound like a show-off; he just can't help himself. If he knows the answer to something, the words just fly out of his mouth. So, for some people he might sound like a "know-it-all". But for Eames, who knows him best, to make such a comment, it was surprising indeed.
I didn't read that line as being directed at Goren, but who knows, maybe the walls of his apartment are covered in awards, degree's, and framed newspaper clippings. None of us can really say either way. Down playing his smarts to suspects is also a good way of disarming them -- like how he spilled the Coke on his notes in The Good Doctor. You can spin the bit about Oxford that way, too. The thing about reading the Quaran is more complicated. I felt like the looks he got were questioning him on his religious beliefs in a time when Muslims were being looked upon as extremists. His response put his reading it in an innocent light without being offensive for any Muslims. In short, I saw him merely disarming a situation with anecdotal humor, and moving on.
What I gathered from the office scene in this episode was that Goren was bothered by fact that the things he expected to see were not in the office of the type of person he would expect to see them in, and he was disappointed at not getting the insights into the warden that he could have gotten from knowing where he went to school and what types of things he prides himself in.
I didn't like that Eames had to point out the books, as I've said before, but I didn't find it *at all* condescending toward Goren. It seemed to me like this episode was filled with bits to bring out Eames as Goren's equal, and that was just one of them, and one that I felt went a bit too far.
Post by maherjunkie on Oct 15, 2005 11:05:08 GMT -5
ETA: Any comments on the new opening ending (, Ok I just confused myself) where the team is walking towards the camera? I prefer the one where D'Onofrio looks at Erbe. In this one they all look straight ahead, like a team on a mission. « Last Edit: Oct 11, 2005, 10:51am by mimi1802 »
I do too! And I miss the briefcase and the longer hair....the show shouldn't be too streamlined.
Post by janetcatbird on Oct 15, 2005 13:52:55 GMT -5
Observer, I think Eames' teasing Goren was more of a friendly poke. She knows Goren doesn't intend to be a show-off, but there are times when he can't help coming across that way. (You mentioned the bit when he seemed to enjoy giving someone a deserved take-down "Listeners infer, the speaker implies".) But I think that's just why Eames can joke with him--she knows he doesn't mean it. As pointed out, Goren often tries to avoid being snotty by downgrading what he was doing. While Goren may have been a bit taken aback, I'm kinda glad that Eames is there to keep him honest, and I would hope Goren knows his partner well enough by now to recognize when she's truly annoyed or when she's just being affectionately snarky. It might be that whole taking-your-partner-for-granted thing, but I guess Eames is used to thick-skinned Goren and wouldn't expect him to take it personally. Don't her comments show how she knows what he's drawn to and what his skills are as profiler/analyst; she recognizes he's out of his element and that's her own non-gushy way of saying she knows what's bugging him?
I can sympathize with Goren: My brain is weird, it'll quickly trigger stuff that, without intention of showing off, comes across that way. I once gave an impromptu lecture in choir practice about the French-Canadian colonial fur trade simply because "Twas In the Moon of Winter Time" makes a mention of beaver pelts--without realizing until afterwards just how geeky and obnoxious I sounded. People get a bit surprised at my familiarity with Bible stories and characters--I shrug it off as reading the children's Bible during services when I was too young to listen to the sermon: "You read the same stories every week for several years something's gonna stick".
To quit blathering about my own warped self, I can relate to Eames as well because of my family. My aunt was constantly referred to as a "Little Lipid Dummy" by my grandfather (she has a PhD in toxicology, and no she isn't heavy-set). My parents give me grief about being a teacher's pet, my father bugged one of his old secretaries about horned helmets and "It's a shame you cain't sing good" (the woman has a lovely voice, I think she did about five wedding just for that office, and has been known to act as a ringer for various choirs and local opera productions). Besides, people on this board are not above a friendly tease, we ought to be familiar with the concept.
Post by lisianthus on Oct 15, 2005 15:37:44 GMT -5
About the "*some* people don't like to show off".
I didn't think she was referring to Goren at all, she was referring to all the people whose offices they've been in. They all 'show off' by having degrees, plaques, photos of themselves with famous people etc. All that gives Goren a way to find out what's important to them and serves as a jumping off point for his questions. (after Eames has run through the basics.) I thought her comment was along the lines of 'some people don't have to plaster their walls with stuff about themselves'.
Also the "Don't bet Money.." song is on an album of Foster songs, sung by BR5-49. The album, Beautiful Dreamer, was released in 2004. I think 'public domain' is the key here.
Last Edit: Oct 15, 2005 15:43:09 GMT -5 by lisianthus
Well, different people may have heard it differently. But it seems pretty obvious to me that if you’re with someone, and you start off a sentence with, “Believe it or not, *some* people don’t like to...” [fill in the blank], you shouldn’t be surprised if they take it as a comment on them. Because they almost certainly will. That construction – combining “Believe it or not” with “*some* people” – is going to be perceived as a cut by virtually anyone who hears it addressed to them. The only question would be whether it’s heard as a light-hearted tease, or a genuine comment about them. They would judge that mostly by tone of voice and facial expression – and if it’s something they’ve been seriously criticized for in the past, it would be hard for them to take it as anything other than a serious criticism, no matter how you said it.
My take on Goren’s reaction was that he heard it as a negative comment, not a light-hearted tease. And it seemed to me that, as part of his reaction to it, he stopped his usual prowling around the room, looking for information on the guy. It seems to me that *that* was why Eames noticed the little bookcase tucked in the corner, and he didn’t. He would have found it if he had continued his typical behavior.
Thanks for the information on the album (CD?) of Foster songs. I’ll have to look for that.
Last Edit: Oct 15, 2005 16:44:13 GMT -5 by Observer2
Post by NicoleMarie on Oct 15, 2005 20:39:53 GMT -5
I agree, Eames made a dig at Goren but, it wasn't the first time she's ever done it.
RE the chicken song, I'm still baffled at the choice and felt like a dweeb for asking but, at least others are as baffled as I am.
True, the choice could be for money reasons, the song could be public domain. For anyone interested, the Crossing Jordan people are having dfifficuly gettting the show onto DVD due to music clearance problems. CJ uses a lot of songs in its show. When you do that, you not only have pay to get clearance but, yoou also have to pay royalities everytime the episode re-airs. And they would have to share a percentage of the rooyalities with the song owners/writers/etc if CJ ever makes it on to DVD.
I have no idea about the chicken song but it is a confusing choice. The song does seem a bit offensive in parts and it is an odd choice given Vincent said he would "never play a racist". Too bad we cannot borrow Ms. SenGupta (or Balcer or Vincent) or another question and answer bit!! ;D
I had the same feeling that Trisha did as to why Goren justified reading the Koran and as I posted wrt to that episode, he missed an opportunity to show the establishment and his fellow crime-fighters his anti-establishment approach to things. I felt the FBI agent made him feel defensive for reading the Koran so he passed it off as in to meet a girl. Hopefully everyone gets that merely reading the Koran does not mean turning radical and he could have pointed that out to the FBI guy. He and eames have often made satirical comments on values and assumptions that show them as open and tolerant.
Personally speaking, again because I face a lot of it in my own life and because I think what passes for wit and humour in today's crap entertainment market is usually mean-spririted sarcasm, I'm very sensitive to put-downs and I didn't see Eames' comment to Goren as one. I thought it showed the intimacy between them. Goren's weakest link is his own ego. He thinks he's hot stuff (come on, you know he does!!) It led him to ignore the signs of Conroy's staged suicide and it led him to ignore Nicole reaching out to him because of the little girl.
Eames merely pointed that out to him in her own indubitable way that if he didn't watch it, he was going to screw up again - and it's his screwing up that makes him vulnerable to people like Nicole and to succumbing to the legacy of his childhood.
Last Edit: Oct 16, 2005 13:23:51 GMT -5 by Sirenna
Post by maherjunkie on Oct 16, 2005 13:58:22 GMT -5
. Goren's weakest link is his own ego. He thinks he's hot stuff (come on, you know he does!!) It led him to ignore the signs of Conroy's staged suicide and it led him to ignore Nicole reaching out to him because of the little girl.
I don't know, maybe about his intellect, but I think the character has a humility and a sweetness to him not often seen on TV but certainly not a police drama.
He certainly has compassion for the victims of the crimes. So has Eames. In a detached way, he also has shown compassion for some of his murderers. He's always sweet with children.
In his intellect, he definately thinks he's hot stuff to use the term faceoustiously and not in a sexual way. But he definately pits himself competitively against other detectives and men. There's an alpha element to everything he does.
Last Edit: Oct 16, 2005 16:18:52 GMT -5 by Sirenna
I didn't get to watch my copy of this episode until last night! So these things maybe addressed, but I am going to comment here (I am at the end of the 1st page) before I forget what I have in my head.
I think that "dance" Goren did was protective ..... if the guy had been at home, the clothes & the sing to himself while dropping off a flyer, would be a curiosity, but not make the man suspicious & grab for the shot gun we saw that he had. Also, a peek inside the front door would let Goren tell the swat team if they were walking into the barrel of a gun or may have time to scope out the house. So for me, the quirky little dance was in order - but I thought it was more "insane" than "gaywad". My gay friends can really dance better than I can; but then, I don't want to insult the pleasantly insane either.