So for me, the quirky little dance was in order - but I thought it was more "insane" than "gaywad". My gay friends can really dance better than I can; but then, I don't want to insult the pleasantly insane either.
Maybe the word "gaywad" is politically incorrect, I apolgize if so. It was not to be a dig against anyone who is Gay. That was not my Intent. I have many teens running through my home and that is part of their language. Another word for Dorky.
I remember reading the book called Blood or Money by Thomas Thompson, based on the true story of John Hill, who was tried for his wife's death in 1972. When it came to picking out the jury, it was stated that Hill's lawyer wanted to get young woman on the jury. So they would look at the handsome man and think he was not capable of the crime of murdering his wife. When I saw Goren doing the dance, it made me feel like I was being set up like one of those woman to find him enchanting. I think I would have appreciated that scene more, if later in the show. Eames had smacked him on the side of the head and made some comment that they were now the butt of SWAT Teams jokes because of his silly dance
I think any time a person uses the word "gay" to connote something in a negative light, it's got to be insulting to gay people, but I believe you that it wasn't your intent.
I also think that it's okay if we don't agree on the significance of the little song and dance sequence. I wonder how much thought the even the writers put toward it. That horribly racist song Goren sang, for instance ... I'd rather just let that whole scene die out of my memory as poorly planned as well as inconsequential to the story, and not dwell on it any further.
Hi, everyone. This is my first post *anywhere*, so here’s hoping I won’t commit any horrible blunders. I trust if I do, some nice person will set me straight? I’d really appreciate it. Anyway, I have a few comments in regards to “Prisoner” that I’d like to share. I’ve read through the posts pertaining to Eames’ “show off” comment, and I found everyone’s insights to be quite fascinating. I hadn’t even considered some of the interpretations people had. I really like the suggestion in regard to the lack of things there were for Goren to fidget with. It’s so true! Now, while there were some suggestions that I found more likely than others, personally, I find it kind of funny that the way I immediately viewed the scene has yet to discussed. Maybe I missed something, but I saw Eames’ remark as a good-natured jab at Goren. It seemed the type of ribbing that usually exists between people who have a solid, long-standing relationship (or partnership, in this case). I agree with everyone who thinks that Goren rarely intentionally shows off. As Goren has an intellectual arsenal that far out-strips the average person, it’s a given that he will be seen from time to time as showing off. Eames knows very well that Goren usually only uses his vast intellect to solve their cases. She accepts his genius (if you’ll pardon the word), gracefully. Another person in her place might have easily been jealous or felt less than adequate. Eames, thankfully, seems above that and hence, they have a terrific partnership. Now, there are times when she seems surprised or almost bewildered at how extraordinary (and dare I say unrealistic?) her partner’s plethora of facts can be. Interestingly, this especially seems true when it comes to languages. I can’t wait until she gets to know Miss “whether-or-not-I’m-quirkier-than-Goren-has-yet-to-be-decided-but-at-least-I-speak-more-languages-than-him” Barek. Anyway, back to my point (and I DO have one, I promise). Eames can and will poke fun at Goren’s intellect. I’ve always liked the “He got that off his Wheaties box” joke from “Chinoiserie”. Despite its rarity, Eames also has no problem telling Goren when she thinks he’s wrong. It’s reasonable to assume that if Eames ever has a problem with Goren, she’ll bring it up. After all, their partnership couldn’t function as well as it does if one or both of them harbored resentment or ill-feelings. Which brings me back to the “show-off” scene (finally, I know). Was the comment aimed at Goren? Yep. Did he catch it? Of course...he’s Goren. What was his reaction? To NOT show-off. He let Eames become the focus during the questioning. Why did he do this? I think Goren probably had three reasons. First off, he was acknowledging Eames’ joke by showing that he understood it was about him and that he didn’t always have to “show-off”. Secondly, Goren with his “few psychology classes” and the close understanding he and Eames share, probably caught a gentle chastisement in her words. Despite all their different strengths and weaknesses, Goren clearly does view Eames as his equal. Since she often remains in the background, this was a perfect opportunity for Goren to show how much trust he has in her abilities. It’s something we’ve seen he has to re-affirm occasionally and vice-versa. Again, it’s how they maintain their partnership. Now thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, Goren’s response gave them an edge. The fellow they were questioning was led to believe that Eames was the brains in charge and Goren the muscle who followed orders and didn’t know how to do much else. Hence, if it seemed the fellow knew more than he was letting on (which sadly, wasn’t the case), he would be completely unprepared and defenseless to Goren, whom he’d most likely decided wasn’t a threat. It’s a tactic Goren and Eames have successfully used different varieties of many times ( “Jones”, “Badge”, etc...). Based on what I’ve come to believe true about Goren and Eames’ partnership, I can’t really see anything else as really fitting. Even if Goren truly had been offended, would he have allowed it to affect the case? I highly doubt it. Therefore, whatever action he chose to take, HAD to be what he thought was in the best interest of the case. I mean, come on, it’s Bobby Goren we’re talking about, not Elliot Stabler (I know, I know...a low and somewhat unfair blow). Anyway, those are my thoughts on that little scene in...a rather large and wordy nutshell. As a side note, you really have to admire the cast and crew, especially Vincent D’Onofrio. No matter whose interpretations are correct, (and maybe it’s a combination or none at all), so much went into just a few minutes (if that) of dialogue. It’s really quite amazing. Now, I had intended to discuss the “Goren dance”, but I’ve somehow managed to already write over 800 words and I’m not sure what’s considered an acceptable limit, especially for a newbie. Suffice to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Patcat’s explanation. Funny thing is, I’ve actually seen some people who hand out fliers (for the weirdest of things, let me tell you) behave in similar fashions. Although I’ve never seen any of them dance. Scary thought, actually. Despite his perpetual five o’clock shadow, Goren does have excellent hygiene. As for the flyer people I’ve seen... Anyway, thank you all for reading and I promise that my future posts won’t be as long. I hope. This is a great community and I’m so glad I found it. Since, I’m so bad with names I completely missed the “Zoonotic” reference, though I knew I was missing something. Gotta love how every glance between Goren and Eames means something. As I said, I’m really glad to be here. I can’t wait to learn more about the great Goren hair debate. At least it’s improving...right?
"A great detective relies on perception, intelligence, and imagination." "Where'd you get that rubbish from?" "It's framed on the wall behind you."
Post by willow2tree on Oct 26, 2005 8:34:15 GMT -5
Wow, Digresser! Great post! You have some awesome insights, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. Don't worry about length, I think it was okay. If it does get too long, the moderators will gently remind you. Welcome, and post often!
I missed the zoonotic reference also; a casualty of my lighter attention span & loose, big picture only memory. I enjoy that scene much more now that other posters here mentioned it - as I remember the smile and look that went on in the scene.
Just a few things I never got around to commenting on the first time this aired.
Mimi, yes I, too, preferred the all-four-walking-towards-the-camera clip that they used earlier in the season. I have no idea why they changed it. Of course, the one I like best-ever of Deakins, Eames and Goren is the one they used for In the Wee Small Hours. It’s too bad they can’t just digitally remove Logan and Berek, move Carver over, and use that one!
I really like the scene where Goren and Eames go back to the fence to try to figure out how the guy faked it. Goren is doing his usual mental/kinesthetic reconstruction of what happened. But they get stuck on the idea of him being willing to just hang there for so long (and perhaps, as in the real case, because his injuries don’t correlate with it).
Goren suggests he might have waited until he saw someone coming and kicked the crate away... But Eames’ questioning of that is reinforced by how much noise the thing makes when Goren kicks it aside. So they just can’t see how he did it. Even Goren, walking through it, imagining himself trying to do it, can’t figure it out. They’re stuck. And Goren, without a wall or doorframe to lean on, leans into the fence, with a half-voiced “Hoh boy!”
And there it is, revealed by the pressure on part of the fence. The link is cut.
It was nice to see a moment when even Goren felt really stuck. His reaction felt so natural. And I love it, that his reaction is what led to finding the clue.
Long ago I remember an interview in which someone, either D’Onofrio or Balcer, said that on Criminal Intent the bad guys get caught not so much because of what they do as because of who they are. I feel like in this scene, Goren finds that clue in the same way... not by some brilliant feat of detective work, but because he’s a kinesthetic re-enacter and a wall-leaner.
There were other neat things this repeat reminded me of, but I didn’t think to make notes before I started re-reading the thread and writing this post, and I can’t call them to mind right now. In any case, I enjoyed this episode all over again.
Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 16, 2005 20:39:37 GMT -5
The only other thing I really have to add about this show is when Goren was leaning into the fence staring/thinking like he does, I shouted to tv "Hey Goren! That fence is cut right in front of you". Seconds later, he noticed the cut link himself. Anyone else notice it before he did? ;D
Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 16, 2005 20:48:18 GMT -5
I’ve always liked the “He got that off his Wheaties box” joke from “Chinoiserie”.
I also loved Eames' ribbing of Goren in "The Posthumous Collection" when she said "A smell *you* can't identify". She took a certain (playful) glee in ribbing him that time. My second favorite ribbing Eames gave Goren was in "Probability", when she was teasing Goren about Wally and said "I didn't know you had an older, geekier brother."
Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Nov 17, 2005 2:24:29 GMT -5
Some quick initial thoughts:
1)Great to see Elizabeth Marvel back on CI. She played Sylvia Moon in S1 - "Art".
2)Eames - "He can shake his head until his ears fall off..." Also she was the one who countered his assumption of "lab guys" by saying that the NYPD had girls in their labs as well. Eames rocks!
3)Bobby the rocking delivery guy LOLOLOL
LOL I i died laughing at this scene every time i see this episode replayed, the first time i saw it it took me a little while for the the image to register i my brain, i'm just not used to seeing Goren in that calibar of casual dress, jeans & a T shirt is the furtherist he's gotten (as far as i can remember) until this ep. I love Elizabeth Marvel, she ws great in 'Art' & even better in 'Prisioner'
Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Jan 17, 2006 13:44:21 GMT -5
Did anyone think that Mitch/Vic and Jenny were really in love? I assumed not but after watching the ep again I am not sure.
I was inclined to think that she just used that as a cover in order to stay with Vic & avoid going back to hubby. It must have been a pretty bad life for her if she was willing to live with a criminal over her own husband.
Post by psychochik on Jan 17, 2006 14:06:16 GMT -5
I was confused as to whether she was actually in love with the dude or not, too, but after seeing how her husband spoke to her and belittled her, I can see where she may have just been with the guy instead of her hubby. The guy was a jerk and derserved what he got.
Gore as the messenger was classic !! That goes down as one of my favorite Goren undercover scenes. What a dork !!!
"Theres no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated" NOFX
"The presidents laughin cuz he voted for Nader" NOFX