|
Post by janetcatbird on Oct 23, 2005 21:38:23 GMT -5
Yay Carver!! Professional yet lively; the dig at Goren; quick-on-his-feet working to fix the situation for Jimmy's case; great control during Olivia's confession; woo-hoo! (Although personally I think he needs to either lose the mustache or grow the goatee back but we'll let that slide.) Good writers! Well done, Mr. Vance. I am definitely taping the USA rerun.
I thought this was a solid episode, well-written, complicated but not too crazy. Kudos to the actress playing Olivia, especially for the very believable crying, but also just for her consistency, period. Whether lapsing into the kid from the wrong side of the tracks "You don't show that you're weak", or getting scared, or holding firm to the need to help the girls, she did well. And her end confession--I haven't seen anybody break down like that, but I thought it very convincing of someone who's scared and guilty not being able to hold it back anymore, terrifed but relieved to finally let it go and be able to undergo penance. A redeemed sinner, who never lapsed from helping others--even at the end, going to take care of the girls and squaring herself to face what would come.
I thought the young nun at the upper-state convent (Edwina) was also good. But what a baby! She looked maybe 16! I though the actress was very cute in how she played that young, eager, hypersensitive type. I don't think the character was trying to overcome internal racism, I think she was just paranoid Oh my gosh, is it wrong if I call someone 'black'? Does noticing someone's race mean that I'm a bad person? At least, that's what I got from her. I mean, talking fast, only to catch herself with that wide-eyed child who just goofed. Uh-oh...I was laughing and joking with a man, is that flirting? We're not supposed to carry on like that! A sweet, amusing contrast to the more seasoned, grounded nuns who've been there forever and are pretty mellow.
Goren did well in this episode--sharp, aware and observant (as always) but not too out-there. I have to admit the fire scene puzzled me, especially his laugh and smile, but it was quickly explained. A very discrete touch, to sit on the farthest bed for the first bit of Eames speaking to the scared girls. Still wanting to protect the weak damsel in distress, but not letting it cloud his judgment and helping Olivia confront herself.
Eames did good too, whether the take-down in the house, talking to the girls, or dealing with Carver.
Deakins had a couple scenes, loved the line about the loose rings. (A bit awkward phrasing, but you work with what you've got.) And did you catch the little quick, silent chuckle at Carver's quip about Goren's "obsessive nature"? I love Deakins, give him more to do!
Hooray Rogers! Goren got to show off his knowledge but she was definitely the expert while the good little detectives listened to what she had. I wish she'd get the chance to zing on "Criminal Intent" but at least the writers are respecting her.
--Catbird
|
|
|
Post by strawberryksc on Oct 23, 2005 22:47:26 GMT -5
to Catbird: I agree with the "Yay Carver!!" and I thought that Courtney B. Vance acted well, I loved his expression during Olivia's confession.
The episode itself I thought was good as well, the two stories were connected well and the intentions were clear, but at the same time I felt a little that they almost took away from each other. I cared so much about the murder of the nun, and then my focus shifted to the beating of Eddie's brother and stayed there (which was probably the point, but I wanted to continue caring about her murder). The episode was always around Olivia and was clear on how one event effected the other, so I'm not "dissing" (can't think of a better word), but like I said I think that it took away. Maybe a little less emphasis on one part of the story... *Sigh* I'm conflicted though, because as much as I think what I said, I still really liked it and understand why it was written the way that it was.
Edwina was really entertaining, as was Saturnboy (er, man?).
I liked the reference to season one with the "lasped alter boy" comment, and also that they showed off another skill of Goren's when he spoke to the girls that were locked in a bedroom.
I think my favourite part was Eames tripping that guy when he was running past.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Oct 24, 2005 2:19:31 GMT -5
This episode hit me on a gut level. I was raised Catholic and still am nominally, and one of the reasons I still consider myself in the Church is because people like Sister Dorothy are in it. Her death was a terrible tragedy, one that became worse as we learned what she was like and how her death was not deliberate. And the story was bracketed at the start by the terrible attack on the young man.
I also was very impressed by the performance of the actress playing Sister Olivia.
It was an excellent episode for Courtney Vance to make his reappearance. It seemed to me that Carver, Goren, and Eames have grown a lot in their professional relationship, especially if their behavior in this episode is compared with THE FAITHFUL of season one (a story that has some similarities to this.).
Finally, I thought there was a lot of energy in this episode. All of the actors seemed to be up, and Mr. D'Onofrio especially so. If this is one of the results of the split schedule, I say it's terrific.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by Sirenna on Oct 24, 2005 7:31:39 GMT -5
I loved the episode on an artistic level but it really crumbled my perception of Goren as a great guy.
The writing and acting were superb: really strong characterization, pathos and humour still letting the dialogue connect the plot dots concisely and with originality.
I liked the young nun's interview - very funny. I definately got the sense that she was too secular to be saintly, like Maria in the sound of music.
Eames and Carver really held their own. I especially liked it when Carver turned Goren's obsessiveness back at him and told him to use it to solve the case.
More on what hit me emotionally about the episode a bit later. But honestly I lost a lot of respect for the Goren character in this one.
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Oct 24, 2005 9:53:20 GMT -5
Sirenna, what made you lose respect for Goren?
I found his early respect for Sister Olivia, and want to protect her, very much in character for him. Like Catbird, this episode reminded of The Faithful, but, even with some of the silly moments like Sister Edwina, it was darker, and much more dramatic. I believe Goren did think it was wrong of Sister Olivia to run away, but he thought it was out of fear of retaliation from her ex-boyfriend, not fear of facing justice for what she, herself, had done to Jimmy Jones. He thought she was just a witness; and innocent bystander, not an active participant. When he discovered that Jimmy had been lured to the park, he went after her, and, in the end agreed that there isn't enough truth or justice. Nothing Angie/Olivia does to help others will ever make up for what she did to Jimmy -- not in the eyes of the law, or her own. Her sorrow and remorse at the end was so great, it almost made me cry. But still, no one forgets that while her regret may be profound and genuine, she still has to face her crimes in a court of law.
|
|
|
Post by Sirenna on Oct 24, 2005 10:42:30 GMT -5
But that's why I lost respect for him. So she was remorseful; being remorseful and being just are two completely different things and not for Goren to decide. He wanted to let her go just because of her sincere religious devotion and good works. Religion has always been an area in which has affected him personally. Frankly he showed her more consideration than he showed the murderer and his family: not for the murder, that aside, but for the circumstances of both characters. Part of the reason Eddie carried so much resentment and anger was because the police never actively tried to find his brother's attackers.
Olivia had spent her life trying to save women from prostitution but I think a large part of the reason she became a nun was to hide from her past not to acknowledge nor atone for how she hurt the murderer's family. She all but asked the priest if she couldn't return to cloisters. That is cowardly. I do think over time the guilt she felt, especially as her relationship to Christ evolved overwhelmed her and drove her to continue to try and help "her girls" as dangerous as that was for her. However, unlike Eddie and his brother, she still kept the respect of the community. She had the comforts of her life; shelter, love and the hope for a progressive life. Eddie and especially his brother were stuck and struggling because of what she did in a moments bad judgement.
Goren thought she was brave because she went out and faced pimps. I don't think so. I just saw a woman who diliberately caused her situation, as opposed to Eddie's unpremeditated murder of the nun. Yes,she regretted it but she never had the courage to help Eddie or his brother or face punishment until it was brought before her. And the person to drive justice to her was not Goren, as it usually is, but Carver.
I do think I saw a bit of sheepishness in Goren's expression as he was trying to justify leaving her alone to Carver, almost as though he knew what he was saying was not what he should be saying as a police officer.
His line at the end about there never being enough justice could be taken either as sympathy for the nun in the sense that no matter how good a person or remorseful after they commit a crime, people still want their blood. I choose (because I don't want to believe Goren could be so unsypathetic to Eddie's brother's situation) to believe that he meant that even after all she did to help people, the only road to absolution is to ackowledge what she did and face the consequences while still trying to be good. But that last line is open to interpretation.
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Oct 24, 2005 11:11:39 GMT -5
I think what we are mainly seeing differently is what Goren believed to be true when he asked Carver not to force Sister Olivia to admit to being Angie. At this point in the story, he didn't see Olivia/Angie as anything but a fearful witness who should have come forward to bring the attackers to justice, but was a messed up junky who was too afraid for her own life and turned to the church for help to escape from her violent boyfriend and overcome her own personal demons. He respected her for cleaning herself up and devoting her life to helping others. Why wouldn't he? That has always been the type of person he's been drawn as.
As soon as he heard Eddie mention that Jimmy wanted to look good to take his girlfriend out dancing, he knew what Angie/Olivia had really done, and he went after her -- he, himself, went after her. Carver never could have gotten that confession out of her, and she confessed it all. She didn't leave anything out, because she wants nothing more than absolution, and as she confessed, she turned desperately around from face to face, and up to the cross looking for it in vain.
In the end, I didn't take Goren's last line to mean one or the other, I took it as a double entendre; he acknowledged that Carver's push for the truth and criminal justice according to the law was the right thing to do, as well as that, for Angie/Olivia, there would never be enough justice, because she can't forgive herself.
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Oct 24, 2005 11:23:54 GMT -5
Yeah, I never felt that Goren was wanting to give her a pass once he knew she had set the brother up. He was "protective" (I think that is too strong, but sort of it) of her when he thought she was trying to overcome bad decisions and bad circumstances; but once he knew she had some bad acts in there too; he was the one telling her only a confession would do it.
I like how Carver looked torn to me when she told him she kicked the brother and called him N. Kinda like he wanted to forgive her as he saw she was really sorry, but was horrified by what she did - so he just stood there, torn. What great acting in that scene. I had tears in my eyes.
The step father was a good character, of course he was needed to carry the plot - but I can so see a guy doing what he did & when he did it.
|
|
|
Post by Sirenna on Oct 24, 2005 11:57:37 GMT -5
See I thought that scene between him, Eames and Carver where he said "hasn't she been through enough" was because they already knew she was involved, if not the instigator.
Incidentally Carver looked horrified when Goren pushed to let her be. Horrified but not judgemental. Mr. Vance did really well in this episode. Terrific acting.
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Oct 24, 2005 13:13:46 GMT -5
Here's what I saw ...
In that scene, Goren suggested that they go to Eddie, show him that they had the letter from Sister Dorthy and the stepfather's testimony that he sent a copy (which Carver called "the connective tissue" they needed for an indictment,) and offer Eddie a plea, then Sister Olivia's past life as a crack junkie and girlfriend of a violent, white supremacist, wouldn't need to be made public.
Carver agreed that if Eddie took the plea, then his motive would be immaterial, but added that he still wanted, "the truth to come out -- all of it." Eames argued that since the statute of limitations on the beating ran out, the only people it would effect are Sister Olivia's girls.
Carver rebutted, "and Sister Olivia, she needs to called to account for her silence all these years."
It was the silence that he objected to. At this point they all thought her guilty of nothing else, but that was enough for Carver. She was a witness to hate crime that destroyed a life, and he, like Eddie, was galled that Al and Tony were allowed to prowl the streets during that time instead of paying for their crimes, and that Angie/Olivia had allowed that to happen by running away.
I didn't see that Carver was horrified when Goren argued to keep Sister Olivia's past out of it, but certainly that he was indignant; indignant as both a lawyer, and a black man. But, Carver has never been one for moral ambiguity or closemindedness, even in the face of the law, and he listened to Goren and saw that his point about Sister Olivia was a valid one. So, he decided to go ahead with the plea offer, as we saw in the next scene.
Carver only offered Angie/Olivia's testimony after Eddie refused their first plea offer, and Goren nodded in agreement that it was the right thing to do, and that in order for justice to be served, Sister Olivia would have to come clean. He didn't know to what until he complimented Eddie on his care of his brother as he walked toward the door. When Eddie said that Jimmy spent two hours getting ready to go dancing with his girl the night he was attacked, Goren remembered that the girlfriend had to work that night and then he realized that Angie/Olivia may have been more than just a witness.
ETA: If I had thought for a second that Goren thought Angie/Olivia was a participant or instigator in the crime and wanted to let her off because of her turning a new page, I'd be pretty disgusted with him, too. That seems, at least to me, not to be the case here. I think, like the priest in The Faithful, Goren recoginzed the true remorse and desire to help others in Sister Olivia, but was he was still intent that she confess and face her crimes. She can do good works and help others in prison, though, being sent there as a racist murderer, she may not last very long in there.
I absolutely agree with you about the great acting by Vance, as well as the woman who played Angie/Olivia -- fantastic.
|
|
|
Post by Observer2 on Oct 24, 2005 15:02:37 GMT -5
Never enough justice. Not for the young man whose life was destroyed by the beating. Not for whomever else those attackers harmed over the years because they were not taken off the streets after that beating. Not for the victim’s brother, who would never have broken into a church, or panicked and killed a nun, if not for the years of injustice. Not for all those who suffer from the real-life tragedies – direct and indirect results of such hate crimes – that this episode echoes.
A very strong episode. I hope they submit it for Emmy consideration.
The actor who played Sister Olivia was impressive. Her portrayal in the last scene was wrenching – that kind of breakdown that is so overwhelming that the person seems almost to be suffocating, or drowning. I felt short of breath just watching it.
I agree with Trisha’s view of those last few scenes, and I agree that if Goren had known Sister Olivia’s full guilt and wanted to let her off that would have been disgusting – and completely out of character.
I like the strong writing for Eames; and Goren’s unique abilities still had plenty of room to shine. The pyro scene was a classic example of Goren’s powers of observation, knowledge to understand what he observed, and ability to test his deduction and draw out the guy’s responses. It all makes perfect sense, yet looks totally weird... a classic Goren moment! In fact, this episode was well stocked with moments of Goren’s exceptional abilities and oddness (he keeps marble-sized ball bearings in his desk?).
But the writing for Carver – and Vance’s portrayal – were truly outstanding, in part because of the combination of intensity and understatement. This is one of my top two favorite episodes of this series.
|
|
jaquetta
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 171
|
Post by jaquetta on Oct 24, 2005 15:13:55 GMT -5
It was a nice strong episode. And yes, Goren was all for letting her stay in her self imposed witness protection program while he still thought her only a witness - if a witness who lacked the character to come forward. She didn't confess her part in it until the end. No wonder she led a life of contrition. Nice, but we still have a judicial system to deal with that. You know, just in case all murderers don't join the cloisters.
I also thought that is was nicely done that Carver was the one to push for what turned out to be the real justice without making it look obviously racial. I mean, there's a certain amount of poetic justice that he is the one that pushes for it, but it's not set up that the black man gets to revenge the black man. Well, revenge isn't really the word either. Oh, lovely and articulate here, aren't I? I just liked the way that it played out.
I loved that dig Deakins got about Goren's obsessive nature. Nicely underplayed.
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Oct 24, 2005 15:30:55 GMT -5
The actor who played Sister Olivia was impressive. short of breath just watching it. She was Susan Misner who played Becky Stark in Smothered from Season 1, She lured her friend to the party where she was killed. I thought Courtney Vance looked wonderful with a full head of hair. He looked a good 10 years younger. Very handsome!!! I liked the ep, but I got to jet
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on Oct 24, 2005 15:31:05 GMT -5
First of all, welcome back Carver! Nice to see Courtney Vance back on point, providing his legal expertise to the CI moral compass, and in an even larger more significant role than any CI episode I recall.
This is a superb episode, thanks to the stellar acting of everyone involved, from the guest stars (Sister Olivia was magnificent) to the main principals. I especially appreciated the debate in the moral vs. legal issues involving Det. Goren, Eames and Carver. I was riveted to the end, with Sister Olivia's tearful and heartfelt confession one of CI's most dramatic and finest moments. The almost beatific expression on Sister Olivia's face as she acknowledges her part in not only luring Jimmy to his awful beating but her own active participation in it, is a scene that has been indelibly imprinted on my memory. What a moment.
I enjoyed how Goren scopes out Enrique's pyromania tendencies in the fire scene. And Deakins' comment about how "Saturn boy has a few loose rings" in his head.
Eddie's speech about what gnaws at him, how racist killers got to spend the best part of their lives as free men with their families, and only are brought to justice when they are old with nothing left to lose, is another stellar scene in this episode.
I don't get the sense that Goren is so overly sympathetic to Sister Olivia's good works that he is inclined to let her off. I think that whatever empathy he feels for her is not only motivated by her life of service as a nun, but also her warmth and protectiveness toward the schizophrenic homelass man ("Saturn boy"). When she tells Goren how people can act toward schizophrenics, Goren's acknowledgement "I know" creates another level of sympathy by him toward her. But when Sister Olivia's involvement in luring Jimmy to the beating becomes clear, and when Carver proposes a plea agreement to Eddie for Sister Dorothy's death contingent upon Sister Olivia's statement, then Goren knows what must be done if there is to be any truth or justice in this sad situation so highly charged with emotion.
What this episode emphasizes for me is the importance to confront one's past and face up to what one has done if there is going to be any true redemption or atonement. The stepfather of Sister Olivia/Angie is the catalyst for this resolution. But as I said in my post about "Grow," Nicole's past is NOT washed away and made clean by her single act of protectiveness toward the young girl. If Nicole is to have any chance to really GROW, somewhere, sometime down the road, she too will have to confront her own personal demons and the actions she chose in the course of her life. Reflecting on this possibility, I'm now left to wonder how such a revelation/confession by Nicole in the manner of Sister Olivia could or would play itself out. I'm almost left to wonder how such a final scene at the conclusion of "Grow" could have provided some closure and resolution to the Nicole Wallace saga. But then that would most likely mean Nicole wouldn't show up again, wouldn't it?
|
|
|
Post by mimi1802 on Oct 24, 2005 19:17:27 GMT -5
No one is bothered by the fact that since the beginning of the season two episodes shared similar topics with episodes from season 1? Diamond dogs versus One and this one versus The Faithful. Is this what “to loop the loop” means?
Diamond dogs didn’t bother me because the writers did breathe new life into the episode.
But this one…murder taking place in a church with pool of blood hiding new clue that leads detectives to a schizophrenic homeless man as a prime suspect, which in turn leads them to a new suspect. Clergy member hiding big secret and running from past mistake by devoting life to save poor souls. Clergy member gets convinced by detective to tell the truth for deliverance.
Quite frankly I don’t like being served the same thing twice. Great acting and tightly written story can’t be used to excuse a lack of originality.
Carver is essential to Goren. I think Carver is one of a few who doesn’t let Goren get away with everything he wants. He serves as the mirror who forces Goren to reassess his way of thinking. Eames also does that but in a more restraint manner. Maybe it’s because she has to be with Goren more often. Carver respects Goren a lot but he’s unwilling to let him be the sole decision-maker of what is just.
Goren’s “the truth shall set you free” speech at the end always makes me cringe because it brings back memory of my mother who used to tell me: Do as I say; not as I do.
How hypocritical of Goren to ask of others what he can’t apply for himself.
I think if Olivia can be labelled a coward for becoming a nun in order to run from her past hideous actions; spending the rest of her life trying to bring justice in other people’s life in order to erase the great injustice she was responsible for…what can we say about a man who becomes a MCS profiler, specialising specifically in solving psychological crimes, bringing justice relentlessly instead of living his life…or addressing his own problems?
For me, Goren telling people that the truth is the only road to salvation can be compared to someone who thinks it’s normal that the mute talked; but is stunned that the deaf didn’t hear him.
Yet, I’ve got to admit I truly enjoyed this episode. Religious topics always make me re-evaluate in what I believe or on what basis I want to lead my life.
|
|