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Post by Patcat on Oct 26, 2005 13:58:02 GMT -5
I also like Carver's role in this episode. There are some stories where his sense of morality--say in WANT--seems to be carved in concrete, where Goren's is much more fluid. (This is also true of Eames, although in WANT she was certainly on Carver's side.) But in this episode it seemed Carver was willing to at least consider the detectives' opinions, and they his.
I also like the point that Sister Olivia hadn't truly faced up to her sin until the final confrontation. By facing up to it she not only served justice, but also may have saved her soul.
Patcat
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Post by mimi1802 on Oct 26, 2005 14:38:07 GMT -5
LOCIfan,
You’re saying I should forgive a lack of originality because the story was well-written and the characters were splendidly portrayed?
I can’t do it!
But I would love to know about these differences in “nature, spirit and motivations of and for the crimes” you’re talking about?
I saw not only similarities in the evolution of the story but also in the characters' motivations.
Both murders had revenge as a motive. Both murderers used a schizophrenic man as a way out. Both Sister Olivia and Father Michael (?? In The Faithful) based their life on a lie and would've continued to do so if the detectives didn't uncover the truth. Both used the Church as a hiding place and a justification for their actions: I've done something wrong; so I will make sacrifices to even things out. Father Michael silenced his own son to protect the mother; Sister Olivia silenced herself to protect her girls.
In both episodes, Goren and Carver didn't see eye to eye on how to deal with the case. In both endings there is a concession made in order to save one party to suffer the consequences of a public trial (the mother in The Faithful; the young prostitutes in Acts of Contrition).
Techguy said that he wasn't aware of the similarities between this episode and The Faithful because great acting drew his attention away. But for me it’s the best magician trick...look here while I do this here!!
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Post by LOCIfan on Oct 26, 2005 16:07:27 GMT -5
LOCIfan, You’re saying I should forgive a lack of originality because the story was well-written and the characters were splendidly portrayed? I can’t do it! Mimi, I wasn't saying you should do anything. Simply that I found the stories sufficiently different, well-written and well-performed that I enjoyed it. I didn't see revenge as a motive for either murder in The Faithful. The murder of the sexton in The Faithful was committed by the priest's son because his drug addiction was out of control. And the priest's murder of his own son wasn't motivated by revenge, it was motivated by a desparate attempt to protect his former lover from their violent son. In Acts of Contrition, I agree that the initial murder was revenge-motivated. I didn't see Father Michael from The Faithful as using the Church as a hiding place. Father Michael was already a priest at the time of his affair with the Dana Reeves character. He didn't enter the priesthood to get away from her or their relationship, and I didn't get the sense that he remained a priest as a way of hiding, but that it was truly his calling. The fact that he'd fathered a son that was subsequently given up for adoption was certainly a secret, but it wasn't criminal. And, had he confessed it, it likely wouldn't have resulted in his defrocking. Only after he'd murdered his son did he have a crime to hide -- and that murder doesn't take place until mid-way through the episode. And although he doesn't confess to the cops immediately, I still didn't see him as hiding behind his collar any more than a doctor who fails to confess to the cops immediately is using his profession as a hiding place. In Acts of Contrition, though, I think Sister Olivia does use the Church to hide. Her reason for becoming a nun seemed to be an outgrowth of her deep need to atone for her past bad behavior. Her entire adult life was a reaction to and and attempt to make up for the crimes of her youth. That's vastly different, in my view, from the story told in The Faithful. There, Father Michael became reacquainted with his son when the kid was in his late teens. And while it seems he tried to help him, I never got the impression that his life was driven by a need to make up for the fact that the kid grew up in foster care or was a drug addict or anything else. His life wasn't based on a need to atone for past sins. Perhaps it should've been, but it wasn't the way he played it or the way the story presented him. Just my take on the eps. Not suggesting you or anyone else need agree.
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Post by LOCIfan on Oct 26, 2005 20:58:16 GMT -5
Both murderers used a schizophrenic man as a way out. This was different too in the two episodes. In The Faithful, Howard, the homeless schizophrenic, just happened to come upon the crime scene afterward and picked the change out of a pool of blood. The drug-crazed son (Kevin) didn't plant evidence in the church or on Howard in order to frame him. Nor did Father Michael (who didn't commit that murder) try to frame Howard for it. In Acts of Contrition, the crime scene was deliberately tampered with to point suspicion at the schizophrenic homeless guy, who she then slipped out of town.
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Post by Patcat on Oct 26, 2005 23:55:11 GMT -5
I see this episode and THE FAITHFUL as themes and variations on similar issues and ideas. Recycling? Well, I can see that viewpoint, but for me the differences, particularly as I've written before about the different attitudes of Carver, Eames, and Goren, make the two stories varied enough.
Patcat
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Post by Techguy on Oct 27, 2005 0:21:50 GMT -5
Techguy said that he wasn't aware of the similarities between this episode and The Faithful because great acting drew his attention away. But for me it’s the best magician trick...look here while I do this here!! Well, that's not quite so in its entirety. I for sure do not consider myself duped by trickery. But perhaps some minor clarification is in order.
Yes, the quality of acting is one of the factors involved in my reaction to "Acts of Contrition" but I also stressed in an earlier post that the characters (who they are, what actions they chose and why) as played by the principals and guest stars made such a dramatic impression on me. I felt no such emotional pull or dramatic conflict in "Diamond Dogs" (partly due to the Annabella Sciorra performance) that compares to how I reacted to "Acts of Contrition." I therefore did not experience any recycling of characters or plot in A of C. I did, however, state in my DD post that I would have preferred something other than the crime we were given as a matter of personal preference because I did get a sense of "One" deja vu.
BTW, LOCIfan and Patcat beat me to the punch with their responses regarding the motives and actions of the characters in "Acts of Contrition" and "The Faithful" so their observations and comments are duly noted. I will say, however, that episodes might appear to have certain similarities, but for personal and highly subjective reasons, can and do evoke different feelings and reactions on the part of the viewer.
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Post by Sirenna on Oct 27, 2005 11:23:11 GMT -5
I love the title. As you know, titles are one of my favourite things. They force us to edit a world of thought into less than a sentence.
On another emotional thought, the scene that struck me as so moving was the one almost at the end when when Eddie stood behind his brother's wheelchair and protectively, lovingly put his hands on his brother's shoulders as Goren stood watching. I forget what he said. I wish I had taped this episode but the quality in this one took me by surprise.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Oct 27, 2005 13:31:36 GMT -5
After Goren tells Eddie 'you take care of him now', Eddie goes on to tell Goren about how 'he always looked sharp' and how Jimmy 'had spent 2 hours getting ready that night'...
You may have a chance to record the episode if you like. NBC has it listed as airing next Friday (November 4) at 10:00PM. Unless, they change their collective minds between now and then.
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Post by mimi1802 on Oct 27, 2005 14:54:40 GMT -5
Interesting, very interesting!!
I still think there were a lot of similarities between the two episodes but I guess I focused too much on them.
LOCIfan the question was a rhetorical one but maybe I should've specified it.
I guess how I registered The Faithful affected how I viewed Acts of Contrition.
I felt that the intent of the murder in The Faithful was based on revenge because of the altercation between the sexton, the son and the homeless man. I also thought that Father Michael used the Church as a hiding place because of how much he cared about the mother. I felt he feared a "real life" with a woman he deeply loved and hid behind the Church to justify this choice to the mother.
What struck me in Acts of Contrition is how Eddie carefully planned his actions. He paid the homeless man and accessed the sister's files.
He was also the one who drew "Saturn Boy's" trademark on the floor to point at him. It was sister Olivia who poured wax on it to cover the clue.
Eddie didn't struck me as the kind of person who do things out of panick. He also didn't show a lot of remorse about the murder. Which makes me wonder why Carver and Goren agreed to this kind of deal?
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Post by LOCIfan on Oct 27, 2005 16:31:24 GMT -5
Interesting, very interesting!! LOCIfan the question was a rhetorical one but maybe I should've specified it. Rhetorical or otherwise, since it misconstrued the intent of my earlier post, I figured I'd clarify. Intent gets lost so easily online...
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Post by darmok on Oct 27, 2005 18:47:18 GMT -5
I disagree that Eddie's actions were carefully planned (at least not all of them). My understanding was that Sister Dorothy's death was accidental. That would mean that framing Mickey for it was not planned either. He must have come up with that one after the murder. Which leads me to agree with Mimi that Eddie doesn't panic.
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Post by Techguy on Oct 27, 2005 23:28:03 GMT -5
I guess how I registered The Faithful affected how I viewed Acts of Contrition. And in like manner, my lack of emotional involvement with the characters in "Diamond Dogs" fixated my attention on the diamond connection between this episode and "One." Whereas with the riveting characters combined with stellar acting in "Acts of Contrition," I saw no similarities between it and "The Faithful." As you also suggest, Mimi, personal reactions are entirely subjective.Eddie didn't struck me as the kind of person who do things out of panick. He also didn't show a lot of remorse about the murder. Which makes me wonder why Carver and Goren agreed to this kind of deal? As Darmok already said, Eddie didn't murder Sister Dorothy; there was no premeditation involved. He had gone back to the church to try again to get her help gaining access to Sister Olivia/Angie with hopes of getting her to admit what happened in the ball yard with Jimmy's beating. When Sister Dorothy again rejected Eddie's request, he must have pushed or shoved her in anger, causing her to fall and strike her head against the baptismal font. She died from the head injury she received from the wound.
To answer your question about why a plea agreement was made with Eddie, Carver realizes that there were mitigating circumstances to Eddie's actions, ie, the fact that no one had been brought to justice for Jimmy's beating. Carver also realizes that Jimmy most likely will someday die from his wounds. So while the statute of limitations had expired for the hate crime of assault, there is no statute of limitations for murder. Carver wants and needs Sister Olivia/Angie to make a statement as to who was responsible for Jimmy's beating so that when the time comes, he can use it to prosecute the guys who attacked Jimmy. Carver tells Eddie he will get that statement--something Eddie was trying to get via Sister Dorothy before her death--in exchange for Eddie pleading guilty to his part in Sister Dorothy's death.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Oct 28, 2005 14:31:07 GMT -5
I finally got to see this one last night, courtesy of my sister who taped it. The first thing that came to mind in the opening scene is wasn't that overpass/street corner the same one used in "D.A.W."? Second thing that came to mind was this episode was a regurgitation of "The Faithful". Both episodes had several things in common: Murder in a church, revenge/anger as a motive, (The boy killing the man, Eddie seeking out Olivia) and Goren trying to "protect" someone's secret (The mothers, Olivia's.) As the story moved on and ended, "Contrition" set itself apart from "The Faithful" as it had a better and more solid ending. I hated "The Faithful" but liked this show much better. This season is no where near the caliber of season 1 or season 2 but, it's an improvement over season 4 and the other 2 season 5 shows. The one constant in this show is one I cannot put my finger on: I suspected Olivia as hiding a big secret. She was too flippant, too defensive, too uncooperative with the cops. She even told Goren, unprovoked, "Don't prretend you know me..." I kept thinking she had something to do with that man's beating, and not just an eyewitness. Like Sirenna, I also lost some respect for Goren but also for Eames, as they were both blinded by the fact Olivia was a nun. They were trying to protect her before they bothered to get her statement. One Goren found out Jimmy was to meet a "white girl" to go dancing, I knew it was Olivia that was the white girl and set Jimmy up for the beating. This dawned on Goren a few mintutes later. I was disappointed in Goren and Eames for not seeing past Olivia's exterior to see what she really was. They did redeem themselves when they realized she was the one who set Jimmy up. I actually expected them to keep trying to protect her. I saw alot of a Nicole/Goren dynamics in this show. Olivia is no where as sinnister as Nicole but both Goren and Eames were blinded by Olivia's few good qualities. I am also disappointed that Eddie gets a "deal" (I think he does!) while Olivia and the others don't. He should get the full prosecution, as Olivia and company most likely will. Loved Carve!! And loved the fact that both Goren and Eames acknowleged they that were very wrong. This wasn't the best show but it was one of the best I've seen in the last year. Like Catbird said, "YAY!"
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Post by NicoleMarie on Oct 28, 2005 14:37:51 GMT -5
I think if Olivia can be labelled a coward for becoming a nun in order to run from her past hideous actions; spending the rest of her life trying to bring justice in other people’s life in order to erase the great injustice she was responsible for…what can we say about a man who becomes a MCS profiler, specialising specifically in solving psychological crimes, bringing justice relentlessly instead of living his life…or addressing his own problems? For me, Goren telling people that the truth is the only road to salvation can be compared to someone who thinks it’s normal that the mute talked; but is stunned that the deaf didn’t hear him. I don't understand what you mean. Just because someone doesn't live their lives the way you think they should, doesn't mean they are hypocrites. To say this is the same as a Christian telling a Jewish person they are going to hell for not accepting Jesus as their savior. The truth is also subjective, depending on how one chooses to look at it. You're calling the kettle black.
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Post by maherjunkie on Oct 29, 2005 10:01:03 GMT -5
I agree. Is there not a great difference between orchestrating a beating and not pursuing a social life?
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