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Post by mimi1802 on Nov 2, 2005 19:56:10 GMT -5
I don't understand what you mean. Just because someone doesn't live their lives the way you think they should, doesn't mean they are hypocrites. To say this is the same as a Christian telling a Jewish person they are going to hell for not accepting Jesus as their savior. The truth is also subjective, depending on how one chooses to look at it. You're calling the kettle black. Nicole Marie, Please do not draw conclusions on how I think in general because I think that Sister Olivia made a cowardly choice and because I made this analogy about Goren and his demands on perps. I do believe Goren is a person who’s asking the mute to talk and does find this normal and he is acting like nothing’s wrong in his life (past or future)…which leads me to think that he would be surprised if someone would tell him a few home truths. I don’t come charging and accusing you of all the sins in the world every time you’re making personal comments about Nicole and Logan. I may not agree about your views on the characters but I respect them. Stating that a person would go to hell because they don’t believe in what he/she is believing, evaluating others based on your own sets of values and beliefs, claiming that you’re holding on to the truth and denying the other group their right to be different, this is a perfect example of ethnocentrism. My comment is based on my own perspective but it stops there. I don’t claim to have the monopoly on the truth. People can come and express a different view and I will keep an open-mind. I certainly am not putting my views above someone else’s and I am not belittling other people’s take on things. And what do you care if I think that Goren is an arrogant, hypocritical, know-it-all, lying sack of shit? That’s MY vision of Goren; I’m not forcing it down your throat. I don’t like him and yet I watch every week because not liking Goren is not a sufficient reason for not watching the show. It’s even a great reason for watching. Goren can live his little fictional life the way he wants because it gives me the opportunity to watch great face-offs between the character and the guest stars: Conway, the coach in Mad Hops, the doctor in DAW, Terry Randolph in Badge, Nicole, Nelda, Tagman…and so on!!!
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Post by joanie on Nov 3, 2005 11:33:01 GMT -5
And what do you care if I think that Goren is an arrogant, hypocritical, know-it-all, lying sack of shit? That’s MY vision of Goren; I’m not forcing it down your throat. I don’t like him and yet I watch every week because not liking Goren is not a sufficient reason for not watching the show. It’s even a great reason for watching. Mimi your posts are more interesting because you don't worship the Goren character. I wish we had more posts from people who just don't care for his know-it-all ways. J.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 3, 2005 22:19:40 GMT -5
Mimi1802, You totally took my comment the wrong way. I wasn't trying to attack you. I'm sorry I hurt your feeling because I wasn't trying to. Stating that a person would go to hell because they don’t believe in what he/she is believing, evaluating others based on your own sets of values and beliefs, claiming that you’re holding on to the truth and denying the other group their right to be different, this is a perfect example of ethnocentrism. That's what I was saying to you in the first place! I was using an example. Maybe not the best one but it was an example ,nontheless. I say that you are evaluating Goren "based on your own sets of values and beliefs". I'm not saying this to be mean either! (Even though you probably think I am. ) We both want what we can't have. I want Goren to be like he was in season 1 and 2! What do I care? If I didn't care what you thought, I wouldn't have posted to you. I just told you and Cassie both the same thing: you both want for Goren to be the way *you* want him to be. And can't have. The point I was trying to make is something like I told Cassie: You're project your ideas onto Goren of how should be, how he should live. You say Goren has no social life or is a lying sack of shit, etc. And like like I told Cassie, it's what *you* want for them to be, not who they are. The only difference in my post to you from hers is that I'm saying because he isn't what you want him to to be doesn't mean he is a hypocritcal, lying sack of shit. Just like someone would tell me Nicole is not a psychopath without a consicious or feeling or that Logan is not a hot-headed bully. I can put the shoe on the other foot. I don't even understand why you would say this about Goren. I just don't see the same Goren that you, I guess. It's probably because I like Goren, I guess too. If I didn't like Goren, I wouldn't watch CI. If this post offends you too, then I'm sorry again because I'm not trying to. I'm just telling you the same thing I said to Cassie.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 3, 2005 22:53:20 GMT -5
I see your point too, NicoleMarie, and agree with your take. Holy cow, the world may just be coming to an end!!! ;D The only way to know whether or not Goren's hiding is if we had a clear picture of the entirety of his life, which we don't. Based on what we know, Eames is also nothing more than work -- except for the fact that she was a surrogate for her sister. Whether or not Goren and Eames are happy with their lives is up for grabs. Goren may not have the kind of life society considers "normal" because he's not married and has no kids (that we know of), but that doesn't necessarily mean he's hiding or unhappy. HAHA, LOCIFan! You're a peach! ;D I like your take too! (This is scary, hehehe!) But really, it seems Goren is held to some sort of double standard or even a higher standrard than Eames is. It's ok for Eames to not be attached and to not have more of an onscreen life than work but, people have fits because Goren is presented the same exact way she is presented.
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Post by LOCIfan on Nov 4, 2005 0:36:25 GMT -5
I KNOW! It's scary, NicoleMarie!!! Every episode you hate, I love. Every episode you love, I hate!!!
Still, I can't help believing that so much is left unstated about Goren and Eames' personal lives, that the audience is encouraged to fill in the blanks. Some people determine that they're both unhappy and submerging their "real" issues in work. Some people assume that there's a lot about their lives that we're just not privvy to. And everything in between. The fact is, there's a lot we don't know and, depending on our own perspectives, we all tend to bring a lot to the stuff that's left unstated. Maybe that's part of the fun of CI...
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 4, 2005 23:45:55 GMT -5
I like you're take on things, NicoleMarie, even though I don't always agree with them, either! That's exactly why I've always liked your presence on the site. You never, or at least you should never, have to justify having your opinions - no matter how wacky - to anyone here. That is the beauty of being part of this particular forum. Don't let anyone put you on the defensive. you weren't personal and you did nothing wrong - so no need to apologise.
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Post by natethegreat on Nov 6, 2005 13:48:26 GMT -5
missed this last week so just caught up and I agree with observer2- this was a great episode. Also, like Mimi, I like that we don't always have to agree with goren- it make him a much more real and complex character. Sister Olivia commiteed a horrible act and deserved to be punished. Despite her own personal form of atonement over the years, she warranted legal action. I loved her breakdown to carver (and his reaction to her).
I htought all of the characters in this episode were well-rounded- not just black and white (no pun intended) good or bad. Eddie also committed a crime, but perhaps (or at least in his mind) it was justified b/c of the injustice done to him and his brother. He was almost the parallel- or opposte- to olivia, who was injust to someone else, then spent her life trying to make up for it thorough religious good deeds. In the end, they both had to pay for their crimes against innocent people.
BTW, I thought the actor who played Eddie was fascinating- really creepy, yet interesting- sort of like a goren in another universe. Telling that he became a flobotmist to spend his life tracking down someone with metaphorical 'blood on her hands", just to end up with blood on his own- both literally and figuratively. Nice writing.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 6, 2005 23:33:44 GMT -5
Thank you, Sirennna!
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mischa
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Posts: 6
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Post by mischa on Nov 7, 2005 4:36:06 GMT -5
I loved Carver's reaction to Sister Olivia too. Disgust, horror, and then that painful look at the end. Like he knew that no matter how sorry she was she could never 'make up' for what part she played in another person's violent beating.
When it all comes down to it she was wrong, and she could never take back what she had done. Atone perhaps, but never take it back.
I love the part in the end when she realizes all of this. When she looks at Carver for forgiveness. It's priceless.
Eddie: That was the most painful thing. He also made a terrible mistake. He never ment to kill anyone. (I don't believe he would have harmed Sister Olivia either.) I think that Eddie, and her were the same in one respect: They both regret their actions. Eddie did right away, but Sister Olivia took years. That distiction doesn't make any of them any better than the other. IMO
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Post by mimi1802 on Nov 11, 2005 21:30:13 GMT -5
Nicole Marie,
I don’t think stating that someone is watching from his/her own perspective is a mean thing to say. Why would you think that? That goes without saying. I can’t watch CI from your perspective. But that’s not what you said in your post. You used one of my comments, used an example then directed it at me. Regardless of what others might think, it makes it personal to me. I find it unfair that I have to justify myself while you get dispensed from it and you’re even encouraged not to do it.
If I have a problem with things you say, it doesn’t mean I want you to apologize, it means I want to discuss it further.
My views on Goren is not something “I want and can’t have”….it’s something “I see”. I may not like Goren as a character but I still find him fascinating.
When I started watching the show, what I liked about it is that we got to see it from the criminal’s perspective and that’s how I watch the show. I guess I’m rooting for the bad guy. From that angle Goren is not an engaging character. He is more like the guy to beat. I want to know what makes him tick…which I’m quite aware I will never succeed but it doesn’t stop me from trying.
For me watching the show through Goren’s eyes makes CI like any other cop show. It’s either a: Cop show with a psychological angle Cop show with a procedural angle Cop show with a technical angle
I read an article once that stated that a detective has to follow the same paths as the criminal without losing his purity. Which means he has to understand the criminal’s world without getting burned by this world. I liked the analogy and it applies well to all cop shows.
What I like about CI is that it allows me to get dirty and enter the criminal’s world.
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Post by maherjunkie on Nov 12, 2005 10:16:34 GMT -5
That's an interesting viewpoint but why do you refer to Goren as a lying piece of .......?
If cops told the truth all the time, nothing would get done. Overall, the character seems like a decent, moral guy.
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Post by Cassie on Nov 12, 2005 10:43:08 GMT -5
I want to know why Mimi wants to get into the Criminals mind.... maybe, I do too I can understand murders for cover ups or passion, but I really struggle with someone who chooses to be a thief for a living. All the prep work that is involved in stealing, is work. Like in the episode "Silver Lining" which is about a master thief who specializes in stealing antique silver from wealthy families. Why not get a real job on the Antique Road Show, if antique silver is what he is into. also while I am here.... About Sister Olivia, sometimes in life, especially with raising kids. If you suggest to the child what kind of punishment do they feel fits their crime. They will normally be harder on themselves then if the parent was giving the discipline. I wonder if and when Sister Olivia goes to trial for the murder of the young man. If the court should show some lenience towards her. I think they should.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 15, 2005 0:30:28 GMT -5
Nicole Marie, I don’t think stating that someone is watching from his/her own perspective is a mean thing to say. Why would you think that? I was saying that you were reflecting onto Goren what you wanted him to be, instead of who he really is. That's what I intially thought you were doing, which after reading this post, I see that's not the case. Yet, in the same breath, I can say you are right. There is nothing wrong with watching CI from your own perspective. I guess I do that myself. Sometimes I dio actually root for the perp, I have rooted against Goren before. So I understand where you are coming from now. ;D I'm going to apologize anyway because I did not mean offend you. Well, I haven't been exempt to critisism lately, I've been told I'm too negative and repetitive...Which in many ways, I find myself in the same boat with you. Same subject, only a different angle. You are critical of Goren as a character where I tend to be critical of CI as a whole, these last few seasons. So, I'm having to justify myself as well. My views on Goren is not something “I want and can’t have”….it’s something “I see”. I may not like Goren as a character but I still find him fascinating. I think I see where you're coming from. Kinda like how I see Nicole or Logan, except that they both repulse me instead of fascinate me. When I started watching the show, what I liked about it is that we got to see it from the criminal’s perspective and that’s how I watch the show. I guess I’m rooting for the bad guy. From that angle Goren is not an engaging character. He is more like the guy to beat. I want to know what makes him tick…which I’m quite aware I will never succeed but it doesn’t stop me from trying. I like that we get to see the criminals "thoughts" in action on CI. I like the interaction between Goren and perp. The only difference between us here is Goren attracted me to CI, not the premise of the show. However, the premise and Goren keep me watching the show, even though I am disappointed in it at times.
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 15, 2005 20:29:05 GMT -5
I want to know why Mimi wants to get into the Criminals mind.... I really struggle with someone who chooses to be a thief for a living. Why not get a real job on the Antique Road Show, if antique silver is what he is into. Goren would say stealing is what he's into. That thief never kept his swag. It was the means not the end that propelled him. He didn't even really use the money he got from stealing. Unlike that other thief - the one who stole female dancers' calf muscles and stored them in his fridge in season four. No, he REALLY liked his stuff but tried to forget in drink how he got it.
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 16, 2005 23:22:58 GMT -5
...BTW, I thought the actor who played Eddie was fascinating- really creepy, yet interesting- sort of like a goren in another universe... It’s interesting you mention him. I keep wanting to ask someone who’s good with faces or actors names if that’s the same guy who played one of the schizophrenic patients in See Me. I’m not good with recognizing faces, but his speech pattern sounds *so* familiar! It was just a little exaggerated in the See Me role, and the guy had an odd intensity to go with it – very nicely played, as I remember. I’m just not sure whether it’s the same actor.
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