|
Post by janetcatbird on May 17, 2006 9:46:20 GMT -5
How strange that just as we were talking about this the Carlos Mencia rerun last night featured a sketch encouraging people to adopt American kids. Of course, Carlos Mencia being what he is it was about as un-PC as you can get, but it did get me and my parents talking. Foreign adoptions are all well and good, of course those kids need help, but there are plenty of kids who need a home all over this country. You wouldn't need to go out of your home county for that.
As to the older kids, you see that sort of thing with Christmas charity too. Little kids, especially girls, get their names whipped off the Angel trees as soon as they get up there. Older kids, older boys, rarely get picked. And that's just preparing a box of little gifts, nowhere near taking one to raise as your own.
Kawaiidragon, I think there's a difference between biological ability to conceive/carry a pregnancy and emotional capabilities as a parent. If you have serious health problems you might want to reconsider putting yourself through that stress, I agree. That's why people talk to the specialists, I guess, because if they're going to go through such difficulties they want someone who knows what they're doing to help them through the process. But that certainly doesn't mean you would turn out cruel and abusive or that the children are simply tools.
I don't know about the bio clock. I'm only 20, and I swear I've heard it ticking already! (Scary as that is, I'm not about to act on it any time soon.) A lot of it is social pressure, but humans being animals the way we are I'm sure there is some sort of bio-chemical/genetic action going on too. Health of the mother, health of the baby on the physical end. Plus, being a parent is exhausting and overwhelming--younger parents would typically have more energy to chase after crazy toddlers, 3 AM feedings, etc. My parents were older when they had me and my brother, and while we turned out OK I certainly wouldn't want to have a baby close to my 40s. I've seen older parents and a few younger ones, and while I know what my preference is you work with what you've got.
(As to the whole timing thing, what's hell on earth is when Mom is going through menopause while the daughter is hitting puberty--suffice to say Daddy worked a lot of late nights when I was in high school. It don't matter if they're ebbin' or flowin', hormones suck.)
Rangerhm, it sounds like your second child came along just fine in the end? I'm sorry for all the trouble you went through, but I hope I can be glad things eventually worked out. (And if I just stuck my foot in my mouth I do apologize.)
--Catbird
|
|
|
Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on May 17, 2006 10:55:43 GMT -5
rangerhm>> I have gone through the issue of infertility with a friend of mine, though it was her hubby that was pushing for fertility drugs & such & she did not want to. She is like me, raised to believe that if you cannot concieve naturally then it was not meant for you, she ended up getting a devorce over it & I commended her for standing by her decision.
I do not see what pain there is, if you have already have one child then I dont understand the need for another, is the child you have now not great & special? My parents had me naturally also but when they went to have another 2 yrs later, they were unable to do it naturally so mom had the courage (& steangth of character) to say that's that. The world is populated enough, why do families have to add to the crowding by having 2, 3, & 4 kids???
|
|
|
Post by Major Hathaway on May 17, 2006 11:16:44 GMT -5
kawaiidragonfoe821 - i do not believe you are being disrespectful; however keep in mind that though opinions may differ dramatically; if a person is talking about a personal pain - i have no doubt they really feel that pain.
i know you are asking about the reason for it, as you would not react in that way; however in the plain text of your post - it comes off as dissmissive. please remember that posts are usually taken in a harsher manner than the poster may intend. this is a very sensitive subject and please treat all who are sharing with respect They are trying to enlighten you about their thoughts and feelings which you happened to ask them to give to you.
|
|
|
Post by spaniard on May 17, 2006 11:23:44 GMT -5
Adopted or not, if you don´t want to a have a kid then of course you are not meant to have one. Nobody should force you to. Unless you get pregnant without looking for it, a child must be loved before you have one, before getting pregnant or starting the adoption process.
Now I´m going to say something strange and please don´t misunderstand me. I´ve never bought a pet because I think that there are enough stray animals that will end up in a gas chamber and I don´t want to give money to heartless breeders when I can give a home to a mixed race dog that will be as loving as any pure breed animal. And I have a soft spot for old animals, everybody adopts puppies but nobody wants doggy grandpas and that´s what I keep. As I say, don´t misunderstand me, I´m not putting kids and dogs at the same level, it´s my way to explain my point of view, I´m completely pro adoption, you can be completely happy and have a family with natural or adopted kids, there is no difference. Maybe older kids give more problems because they have memories and feelings about what they have gone through but nothing that can´t be solved with love and patience, like any other kid.
I want to give a home to a kid (a grown up kid, not only cute babies exist) but at the same time I don´t want to miss the experience of pregnancy either. I consider it a miracle. I don´t know any couple that can´t have children but I think that if I knew them they wouldn´t be happy to know I´ve 'wasted' my chance to do something they are hoping for.
Somebody made a comment about girls wanted first, here in Spain boys are usually the most 'popular' ones. When a couple wants a girl they don´t wait a few years in Spain, they go straight to China.
|
|
rangerhm
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 59
|
Post by rangerhm on May 17, 2006 11:36:40 GMT -5
Kawaiidragonfoe821 -- I am sorry your friend and her husband had such different views and that it cost them their marriage. It must have been a very difficult time for them and thier family. If you couldn't see the pain your friend was going through, what kind of friend were you??? Fortunately for me, my husband and I were in total agreement, having discussed all our options before hand and agreed to do whatever we had to together.
I certainly will not allow you to make me feel guilty for bringing my second son into this world. I have read all the other posts about unwanted children populating the world. Well, please know that this child was dearly and desperately wanted and is so very loved by all around him we cannot, now three years later, imagine life without him. Yes, Catbird, in the end, everything was wonderful and I wouldn't change a thing.
As for you wondering why families have more than 1 child when the world is full of unwanted ones, I don't see you lining up, offering to adopt some of your own.
Major Hathaway, I appreciate your post, I hope I did not offend anyone. This is a sensitive topic and should be treated that way.
|
|
|
Post by SarahIvy on May 17, 2006 11:49:57 GMT -5
Well, I'm not so sure I want to delve too deeply in the whole infertility treatment/biological child aspect of this....people have such incredibly strong emotional opinions on both sides, myself included.
I will say however, that I have the utmost respect for people who choose to adopt. I have never understood why more people who want to raise children don't. Someday I hope my husband and I can adopt, or at least foster.
On the biological clock issue, I'm currently 29 years old, and while I do want to have children in my life (be they adopted or fostered), I have no particular desire to have biological children and in fact that need has decreased steadily and drastically over the years. That may well change as I enter my 30's, who knows.
I know a couple of families who have adopted children from overseas and generally speaking overseas adoptions are easier than American adoptions and frequently less expensive. One couple, who are absolutely the most adoring and loving parents you could ever hope to find were resoundingly turning down for stateside adoption simply because they were a bit older (she was in her 40's and he in his early 50's). They adopted a 2 year old girl from China with much less trouble and stress for all involved.
I think one huge change that would help immensely would be to fix the American adoption system so it was more available to those who want to give a loving home to a child in need of one...., faster, less expensive, and less restrictive to single parents and gay couples.
|
|
|
Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on May 17, 2006 11:59:50 GMT -5
I certainly am not out to attack ot offend anyone either, I just have a very crude & direct way if expressing my opinions & I cannot help that. I' am also not AFRAID of offending anyone (even if I do not set out to do so).
As for adopting, I'm only 24, am in the process of applying to finish college & have 18 animals to care for on a 62 acre ranch, now is not the time for a child...... adopted or otherwise. You still havent answered my question of why parents feel the need to have more then one child esp by artificial means.
As far as standing by my friend, when she filed for devorce, her husband contested the split of their belongings (anything to make her life harder... loser) in court, she came to me & asked me to be her witness, sence I had been there for her entire ordeal, I of course agreed. I gave her as much emotional support as I could, though at times I admit that I didnt understand the pain of what she was going through, I was ALWAYS there for her as a crying shoulder & stronghold.
|
|
|
Post by pyramid on May 17, 2006 12:16:48 GMT -5
rangerhm, I don't believe kawaiidragonfoe821 is being hurtful or insulting, rather just being blunt and stubborn about her beliefs. I'm in her shoes, and most of my friends and siblings have children and I'm the lone one who doesn't and most of the pressure comes from them to have children, especially my mother. My own sister resorted to invitro for her child and that is something unfathomable to me right now. But who's to say one day kawaiidragonfoe821 won't change her mind. Right now, she's just a child herself. A "biological clock" is not the same as a circadian rhythm. There is scientific proof that this exists but none about the latter. I believe some women have this "clock" while others like myself do not. Just as some women want children and others do not. We're all different. I don't condemn anyone for their beliefs or choices, no matter how irrational they may seem. I don't do it to others because I don't want them to do it to me.
|
|
|
Post by LOCIfan on May 17, 2006 12:31:50 GMT -5
I do not see what pain there is, if you have already have one child then I dont understand the need for another, is the child you have now not great & special? My parents had me naturally also but when they went to have another 2 yrs later, they were unable to do it naturally so mom had the courage (& steangth of character) to say that's that. The world is populated enough, why do families have to add to the crowding by having 2, 3, & 4 kids???I think you're raising two issues here. The first is an inability to empathize with the pain others might feel at not being able to conceive, in spite of the fact that you yourself have never felt that pain. That, I think, is simply an issue of empathy. The second is your question concerning why people would ever want more than one child. One answer to that is that many, many people feel that having an only child does a disservice to the child. Personally, I am neutral on this topic, but I do understand the arguments against having an only child. A child that has at least one sibling has a lifelong bond with another human being with whom they share a common history. The sibling relationship teaches children about sharing and empathizing with others. It socializes children and creates an emotional foundation for intimacy. It shows children that the world does not revolve around them. Additionally, siblings can be there for each other once their parents have passed away. I have known many, many only children. Some of them are fine with the fact that they're only children. Some of them have always longed for a sibling. Some found that they wished, very deeply, they had a sibling at the time of (and after) the death of their parents. One friend lost her father when she was in high school and her mother when she was in college. She was one of those who'd never minded not having a sibling growing up, but since the death of her parents (which is several years ago now) has often longed for a sibling. Some parents see great value in the sibling relationship and also believe it adds intrinsically to the character development of all their children. It's wonderful that your mother was able to do what she thought best for herself and her family. However, what's "best" varies from individual to individual and from family to family.
|
|
|
Post by LOCIfan on May 17, 2006 12:38:50 GMT -5
I certainly am not out to attack ot offend anyone either, I just have a very crude & direct way if expressing my opinions & I cannot help that. I' am also not AFRAID of offending anyone (even if I do not set out to do so).
Well, I think there's a difference between being willing to disagree with others respectfully and not being afraid to offend others. And, I'd just hope that particularly on an issue like this, where people are sharing very personal and sometimes painful experiences with you in response to your question, that you would keep that distinction in mind.
|
|
|
Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on May 17, 2006 13:01:06 GMT -5
I was an only child & I loved it, I myself have never been much for human company anyway.
I can't help the way that I feel & no I guess I do have a little bit of an issue feeling empethy for someone in a situation that I have never found (Nor ever plan to find) myself in.
Forgive my apparent callusness, I' am just a product of my upbringing. I was brought up to shun artifical methods of conseption & my mother has little tolerence for it (dad cares not one way or the other), thus I' am the same way.
|
|
|
Post by madger on May 17, 2006 13:20:20 GMT -5
I wasn't going to comment on this thread, as it is a very, very personal topic. I'm the youngest of 8, and I never had the urge to have chidlren for many reasons, genetic, philosophical and personal. In theory, I believe the world is overpopulated and humans are very destructive, but who am I to tell someone not to have kids just because I personally don't want them? just as I would resent someone telling me what to do with my personal life. Adoption is a great thing, adoptive parents are heroes. I agree with SarahIvy, the U.S. adoption system sucks. I can understand that they prefer to pair children with parents of the same race, but it seems they're very inflexible, isn't it better to have a single, gay, black, white, martian parent, who really, really wanted you, than being foisted from foster home to foster home, with no roots, no security? My hats off to ALL parents, biological or adoptive who raise decent and caring pleople, that might very well solve the worlds problems. God only knows i've tried but no ones will listen to me. My mom once told me that in her next reencarnation she wasn't going to be catholic. Just struck me as very funny. madger
|
|
rangerhm
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 59
|
Post by rangerhm on May 17, 2006 13:39:04 GMT -5
I agree, adoption is wonderful. As I said before, my older brother is adopted as is his wife and several of my cousins. Many of my friends have adopted children, mostly from China or other foreign countries. I think it is a wonderful option for families who choose not to have biological children or cannot for whatever reason have biological children. However, it is not nirvana. My sister-in-law had a very difficult time reconciling the fact that she was adopted.
I think we have to understand that there is not one solution that is right for everyone. Some people choose not to have children, some people choose to adopt, some people choose to use whatever medical science has to offer in order to conceive and some people choose to have many children (a close friend is pregnant with her 5th child and is thrilled). Personally, I am one of four children and my mother would have kept going if my father would have agreed to it. This is what freedom is. We should each be allowed to make the choices that are right for us and our own family and we should not judge each other by the choices we make.
|
|
|
Post by Metella on May 17, 2006 13:57:33 GMT -5
Forgive my apparent callusness, I' am just a product of my upbringing. I was brought up to shun artifical methods of conseption & my mother has little tolerence for it (dad cares not one way or the other), thus I' am the same way. Amazing - this sounds like you have no interest in the subject; have not thought about it and it's implications; but by damned - since that is the way my mom did it - that is the only way that is right. I can be pretty rough around the edges too, but I do try to couch my posts so as not to outright offend - the statements you made above really point to a nearly pathological lack of empathy all around. I've never had an enlarged prostrate, nor will I ever, but I can lend some empathy to a person in pain. There are horror stories about adoption. I know there is scientific evidence done on many sets of identical twins showing a development pattern nearer to the biological parents than the adopting ones ..... that a BABY adopted at birth will develop personality traits about 80% like the biological parents. That could cause troubles if you have one set of parents who are active, loud, aggressive etc and one set who are reserved, quiet and so forth. It is, as someone said, not nirvana. I still look at adoption as the more logical choice for a couple when they find out they cannot have their own, but I don't discount many emotional reasons for going for invitro and the rest.
|
|
|
Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on May 17, 2006 14:18:39 GMT -5
What do you mean I have no interest in the subject? I started this thread didnt I? I don't try to couch my posts at all, it is not who I' am. The point is if we were sitting around having this discussion if it were 100 years ago because in vitro & embryo implantation wouldnt be available.
I believe that the scientists ared also mostly to blame for this also, they played god (basically) & tramped on everything evolution has worked so hard to build. I think this is the reason we have so many birth defects & mental illnesses, because people who shoudnt (as nature governs, & she makes no mistakes) have children arent willing to take no for an answer!
|
|