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Post by Sirenna on Nov 15, 2006 21:22:50 GMT -5
late2theparty: Yep, yep and yep! I'm seeing the end of LO:ci in this episode. It came very close to jumping the shark with Goren's outburst. This is how good shows end. ER, NYPD Blue all of them lost focus of the stories and got bogged down by the misplaced angst of the characters. All that was left was a swampy mess.
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 15, 2006 21:28:27 GMT -5
I’m disappointed to say that I haven’t seen this one yet. My sister was sick, and I’m not used to CI being on Tuesday... I didn’t even think of it until after midnight. First time that’s happened since the premiere of the second season. Techguy, will it be shown on USA soon?
The posts have been fascinating. Techguy’s, yours was evocative and moving. But I’m concerned by the many observations that suggest that Goren and Eames are behaving in ways that are not just reactions to stress, but are genuinely out of character. This was one of my greatest concerns when I learned that Balcer was stepping down as showrunner/headwriter.
Another of my concerns was the fact that Balcer is an expert crafter of mysteries, and has studied psychology for many years. The other writers are mostly award-winning playwrights. Their focus may tend to be on an exploration of emotions and human dynamics. As far as I know, none has ever won an Edgar without a co-write on the story from Balcer. And, it would seem, none has Balcer’s depth of psychological insight and understanding.
Seeing Balcer’s credit as “consulting producer” gave me hope... but I’m having trouble seeing any real evidence of his influence. And what I’m hearing about this episode is not terribly encouraging.
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Post by musicwench on Nov 15, 2006 21:45:50 GMT -5
I'm actually glad they're changing things up a bit. I have a tendency to get bored with the same old formula stretched out over time. And heck, if you want superhuman people to watch, check out the show Heroes or something. Maybe they never make mistakes and are always professional and look like they don't exist outside their jobs. Me, I like my characters to show their flaws sometimes. I can relate better to them.
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Post by Cassie on Nov 15, 2006 21:58:54 GMT -5
Raeangel, you make perfect sense about Goren, and his relationship with his mother. I would make a bet that mummy goren, has been pulling her sons strings since he was 7 years old too. Dare I say it…Bobby Goren, Is a closet mama’s boy. She groomed him to be one. And since her days are numbered most of the boundaries are gone. Originally, I was going to say too, I don’t buy the fact that she has easy access to a phone. But, who am I kidding, a loved one in my family was dying of brain cancer last year, and he made some interesting phone calls from the home. When your loved ones days are numbered. You can’t help but jump through hoops, and friendships are tested., Eames….
And you know….Ross, was there for Goren….. That surprised me.
but yeah..... I can see Bobby Goren having a melt down, between his job and his mom..... It just makes him that much more human
But I got to be honest, Ross’s Thanksgiving with *his* family….was bizarre, his ex and her mate at the table.
I liked seeing Eames in her dress, and high boots. It was nice.
The crime, Fran Dresher made me cry when she saw her little girl, and her yelling at her hubby. The storyline kind of reminded me of the movie "The General's Daughter" with John Travolta. sad...
I too, see the writing on the wall for the end of the Goren and Eames episodes, of LOCI, (Logan and Wheeler shows are based more on the crime, then their personal lives) And if that is the case. I would like some closure for the Goren and Eames storylines. And I appreciate that the writers and actors are trying to do that for their fans.
Oh, and about VDO/Goren's weight. He is a man pushing 50 years old. He looks fine. Tired....but fine..... I was wondering do you think VDO stayed up late....just so he would look extra tired for the show
And I really would like to learn about how Joe Eames died. I feel that should be a case reopened by the Major Case Squad. hmmmm. Maybe Logan and Wheeler, should be the ones to investigate that. With Eames poking her head in wanting to know what is going on.
Ok...time for bed...
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Post by Patcat on Nov 15, 2006 22:17:31 GMT -5
24 hours and six pages of comments (g). Norman Rockwell and Edward Albee (g).
I can only say "Amen" to many of the comments, especially Techguy's.
In defense of Eames, especially, I can only say that she is trying to be there for Goren. It's not her fault that he isn't grabbing the lines she's throwing to him.
Goren needs to recognize that he needs to get away from work. He needs to take some leave. But he always seems to understand others much better than he does himself.
I find it interesting that so many people have had experiences with people close to them dealing with illnesses, especially mental illnesses, and that people are willing to share those. This was a difficult episode for me because of my mother's last months. We didn't have a difficult relationship--we would've had to have had a relationship to have that--but her last days were made very hard by her dementia when she made a lot of demands and thought I was everyone but who I was. So I really felt for Bobby.
Patcat
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Ronni
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 99
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Post by Ronni on Nov 15, 2006 22:40:31 GMT -5
I loved this episode. I'm glad this episode has been so well received, I figured since it was kind of personal everyone would not like it. Nice to be wrong. tv guide actually gave it an EXCELLENT review, called it the best of the season, great on all fronts. My feeling too.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, (I'm only on page 2 so far) but another thing to consider is that Bobby has had nothing but stress in the past two months-- Eames' kidnapping, himself held at gunpoint, the suicide, Ross on his back CONSTANTLY, and his mother's illness. He's got to be wrung out. And this was no doubt his mother's last Thanksgiving.
It was such a great episode, too bad it won't do well in the ratings. I think they should have saved this episode for the actual Thanksgiving week like it was originally scheduled. At least the dancing stars thing would have been over.
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Post by Techguy on Nov 15, 2006 23:32:51 GMT -5
OK, I spent the last 24 hours in my emotional and psychological bunker, but now it's time to come out and vent. Some things just have to be said.
My initial reaction to this episode was I wasn't sure if I liked it or not, wasn't sure if I hated it or not, sort of similar to what I experienced after seeing "Death Roe." I was--and still am--as my original post suggests, at war with myself because I was deeply troubled but didn't know exactly why. Now I know.
Like "Death Roe" before it, "The War At Home" takes an emotionally charged subject which should have been the focus of attention of the episode and then trivializes it. "Death Roe" trivialized the issue of incest to the point where I lost my focus on, and empathy for, the incest victim. "The War At Home" is equally guilty, in this instance trivializing the issues of the brotherhood of military service, the diifficulties returning service men and women have re-adjusting to civilian life, and committing atrocities in the name of that brotherhood.
How did "The War At Home" trivialize these issues and diminish their impact? Similar to what "Death Roe" had done, TWAH used and abused these important issues purely as lynchpins--for ratings-grabbing angst-ridden melodrama, to give Goren the opportunity to emote about his mother and to create a schism between him and Eames. As a veteran I feel deeply offended and disrespected, not only for myself but also on behalf of those I visited at the Veterans Hospital and cemetery on Veterans Day. It's as if Warren Leight and everyone else responsible for the "new CI" has so little regard for the show's characters and history--its heart and soul--that it now feels pi$$ing on those of us who have served will benefit the show in the ratings. No wonder this episode aired when it did, between Veterans Day and Thanksgiving, the better to trash both days and what they mean to those of us who value and cherish both.
Has CI jumped the shark? Just put Goren on some waterskis and cue up the theme from "Jaws." We need a bigger boat.
ETA: Observer, TWAH is now scheduled to air on USA on Wednesday November 22 at 11PM ET.
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Post by goreamesfan on Nov 15, 2006 23:55:46 GMT -5
I absolutely loved this ep. One man's (or woman's) soap is another man's (or woman's) character development. And I didn't see anything out of character for Eames or Goren.
Goren has always been emotional, and we've seen him lose his temper in the past -- particularly with regard to Nicole -- when it gets too close to home. He was clearly disapporiving of the deputy commissioner's style of parenting -- the too-high expectations for his daughter -- which probably mirror his own mother's expectations of him. The desk sweeping was unprofessional, but not out of character for someone under so much stress. We've been witnessing Goren keep it all in, like a pressure cooker. Look at VDO's performances going back to last season: His Goren has had less and less facial affect, excatly like someone whose energies are so used up by trying maintain control that he shows almost no emotion whatsoever. That much pressure is bound to explode when given no release, even when his partner does her best to reach out. Goren is a great reader of others' natures, but he's not so keenly perceptive of his own. Maybe this is why Nicole has an easy time of manipulating him (which I know drives fans crazy). He's a great one for controlling situations, but not so much when he's emotionally involved, as again we have seen with Nicole. We're definitely seeing a different side of Bobby this season, but it doesn't feel inconsistent with what we've learned and seen of him for the past 5 seasons. This is a very finely gauged man who's never shown a knack for "balance." He's a hero, in my book, but he's no Superman. And I don't want him to be.
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Leonore
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 145
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Post by Leonore on Nov 16, 2006 1:23:55 GMT -5
I've really enjoyed seeing the different points of view expressed and I especially can feel for Techguy's frustration (the real crime was a sidebar). The NYPD has to have Family Medical Leave (FMLA) and Dependent Care leave for that matter so all that for me was a nonstarter!
My thoughts swirl around the decisions being made by each character and why (emotionally, pragmatically, or calculating). Again, family dynamics (parents, sons and daughters, brothers) is the arc on which the episode hangs itself. Distant parents (perhaps even neglectful), children striving for approval and perfection (that in the end cannot be achieved), and brothers (Cain and Able?).
Goren, responsible for his mother, trying to do the right thing by everyone and killing himself in the process isn't a shock to me. He probably has his brother thrown up to him. HE'S the one the mother wants, the ne'er do well scapegrace, fun-loving, irresponsible and feckless, probably just like the father. Goren's the one with all the responsibility, decisions, faithful in his care and his mother unfortunately probably hates him for it. You have the theme of brotherhood. Where's Goren's brother?
Still processing this episode and will have to think about it for a few more days.
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Post by Jefferaldo on Nov 16, 2006 1:30:54 GMT -5
too many acronyms in this episode...i only understand some of them: "what happens TDY, stays TDY"...TDY??? what does SID mean? it's not just this episode...it had something to do with phones. when they were tracking the cell phone towers she was using.... TDY: Temporarily Deployed for a Year (Deployed Overseas) SID: Special Investigation Division, NYPD Detective Bureau. Some squads/units aren't part of a particular precinct, for eg. The Major Case Squad (at HQ). JTTF (Joint Terrorism Task Force), Missing Persons, Major Case Squad and a few others that I don't know are part of the Special Investigation Division.
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Post by LOCIfan on Nov 16, 2006 1:41:04 GMT -5
I liked this episode, though it almost felt as though I was watching a different series. Sort of a parallel-universe LOCI. Rita Moreno was terrific and it was interesting to see Goren so regressed when dealing with his mother. But what suffered was the story involving Amanda's murder. Instead of seeing Goren's character revealed and reflected in the course of unravelling the mystery of criminally pathological behavior (of others), in this episode, the case was little more than background music for the overt revelation of Goren's character. I think the fact that there was so little connective tissue between the murder case and what was going on personally with Goren is one of the thing that made the episode as a whole feel disjointed.
But, it was interesting, after all these years, to see Goren with his mother. If Frances Goren had been played by a lesser actress, it could have been disastrous, but Rita Moreno really delivered. Her performance was terrific.
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late2theparty
Rookie
"A house without books is like a room without windows." Horace Mann
Posts: 9
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Post by late2theparty on Nov 16, 2006 2:53:10 GMT -5
And you know….Ross, was there for Goren….. Not so much. Ross should have honored Goren’s, “Captain is there anybody else-- please.” Then when he arrives, Ross’s, “Detective, thank you for coming,” was a little snippy. His statement, “I’ll get you out of here as soon as I can.” which has been mentioned in a positive light lacks any sincerity when a successful interrogation is followed by, “You can get your paperwork to me before you go.”
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Post by Cassie on Nov 16, 2006 6:27:15 GMT -5
If Goren lost control Im sure it will annoy him as much as anyone else. Self-control is something to do with his Pride. Theres a tragic flaw there to be investigated.Pride and downfall? "Pride is like a beard, it has to be shaven every day"Ross from day one, has been trying to knock down super sleuth Goren.... and is Goren's own pride his downfall? but.... sometimes when we fall, we are reborn into stronger, better human beings.... maybe that is why Goren has so much compassion for others.... cause he has been here before.
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Post by Cassie on Nov 16, 2006 6:28:56 GMT -5
Hi, Late2the party ... I agree Ross was very snippy with Goren when the show started out, with the 'thanks for making it detective" and his eye roll. And Yes, he should have let Goren go tend his family business. But he did acknowledge that Goren was his best detective to the father, by not saying anything, When the father asked "is this your best detective?" Ross needed Goren on this case..... And he let his outburst slide. Normally Ross wouldn't. hmmmmm,, but..... your right, when after they found Amanda's body . There was no real urgency in the case anymore. I am just trying to be objective to my love/hate relationship with Ross. As the episode progressed I saw Ross trying to understand, where Goren was at. Let's be honest.....most people need there paychecks, and want to do their job to the best of their ability. Goren's loyalities were torn. He could have said NO. Mom is coming first this time. But he didn't. A few years back while at work, a friend was leaving to be with her dying mom. but she had some reports that had to be done for the corporate office, before her plane took off.... I can still see her.....standing up and letting out a cry...... Goren's fustrations where real..... torn between duty to work and his home life. Oh Yeah.....Hey Jefferaldo.....it's so nice to have you back where you belong
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peachybc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 109
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Post by peachybc on Nov 16, 2006 8:10:40 GMT -5
OK, I spent the last 24 hours in my emotional and psychological bunker, but now it's time to come out and vent. Some things just have to be said.
11PM ET. I hear you Techguy. This goes back to my main complaint about CI this season: They're trying to cram too much into every Goren and Eames episode. The stories are being overshadowded by personal emotion, not the beautifully, intricately Rene Balcer interweaving of the two. We've gone from "As the Criminal Mind Works" to "As the Detectives Angst." I could use a break from all the emotional turmoil. Otherwise I'm gonna need counseling right along with Eames! Either that our I'm gonna go criminal, kidnap Warren Leight, and stalker cam torture him until he sees the "light." ;D
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