peachybc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 109
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Post by peachybc on Feb 8, 2007 10:14:59 GMT -5
The idea that the wife stayed in the marriage for the sympathy she received--I hadn't thought of that, and it's an interesting one. I'm going to hammer again a point I've probably driven into the wall, but my hope is that Goren is being taken through hell so he can emerge healed and strengthened. I don't see Mr. D'Onofrio as not being engaged; I see him playing a character undergoing great changes. My problem with this episode was that the crime and its motivation had several holes. Patcat Patcat, That's just how their marriage came across to me. They were both getting something out it. It was feeding and sustaining them both for whatever bizzare or possibly sick reasons. I'm with you on the Goren being dragged thru hell only to come out on the other side stronger and better for the rough experience. I've said before that VDO is a "deep sea monster" -- he goes deep into his characters and brings forth what he believes his character should be doing and feeling. And I've had a lot of problems with many episodes this year...something important has been missing in most of them for me. It feels like this season lacks...direction and focus? PeachyBC
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Post by madger on Feb 8, 2007 11:27:46 GMT -5
A few thoughts: What's different this season? the only huge difference is the absence of Rene Balcer who lovingly co wrote most of the scripts in the past and gave the whole cohesiveness.
I think that, just as we do, the actors, specially VDO and the writers miss the old dynamics and have to adjust to WL. I also think that Warren, in trying to put his own stamp on the show has diluted it and shown very little respect for the fan's intellect.
Also VDO's combination of chubbier cheeks and "less is more" acting technique and the depression of the character are making it seem, well "less". I love watching VDO/Goren's face in thought, they could have a camera on him for hours just thinking and I'd watch, I wouldn't even dare go to the bathroom for fear of missing a nuance, but the rounder face is less expressive, and frankly I still miss his old teeth.
All these things put together add up to a series of Meh shows and frankly, in the case of Tru Love, horrendous shows.
I don't think Goren and Leigh make a very good couple, Logan is more his type.
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Post by MissEllie on Feb 8, 2007 11:39:40 GMT -5
I think that, just as we do, the actors, specially VDO and the writers miss the old dynamics and have to adjust to WL. I also think that Warren, in trying to put his own stamp on the show has diluted it and shown very little respect for the fan's intellect. This is what I was trying to say, but you said it much more eloquently than I did.
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Post by girlinblack on Feb 8, 2007 12:00:33 GMT -5
I'm going to hammer again a point I've probably driven into the wall, but my hope is that Goren is being taken through hell so he can emerge healed and strengthened. I don't see Mr. D'Onofrio as not being engaged; I see him playing a character undergoing great changes. I hoping that, that's exactly what's going to happen... we have four episodes left, right? There's still hope that Goren will "come back to life" in the near future. Gosh, the ratings have got me a bit nervous though... not good. I want my CI. I'd be sad to lose Goren and Eames. They've still got a chance to pick things back up, though. If NBC advertises the next new episode better, and they have Goren snap out of this coma-like-state that he's been in, we'll be OK. & You know, if they are going to end the show, I'd rather see them go out guns blazing! I can't believe that they'd make all these changes this season for nothing. *Prays to the Law and Order Gods* ... give us the old Bobby Goren back! I re-watched the bar scene for the hundredth time... You can actually hear him letting out the breath that he's holding in when he asks her if they are alright. He might come off harshly as far as his tone goes, but the look in his eyes makes him appear so vulnerable. I think that he *needs* her, and not necessarily even in the shippery way, but as a colleague and friend. I really like how you put that. I would love to see that happen. I'd probably faint in shippery extacy... I just can't help myself. I love those two.
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Post by LOCIfan on Feb 8, 2007 12:21:36 GMT -5
I've watched this episode several times, and though at first I wasn't impressed by the story and the performances, the more I watched it and did some scenes in slow motion, the more I began to appreciate the episode. See, for me, this is the mark of an unsuccessful episode. If it has to be watched in slow motion in order to be appreciated, there's something seriously wrong. It's one thing if the episode works in real time and also in slo-mo. Otherwise, not so much. But, gorensdoppelganger, I truly admire your persistence and willingness to go that extra mile! ;D
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Post by LOCIfan on Feb 8, 2007 12:42:34 GMT -5
As for the writing, and who's responsible for the words on paper that led up to what we've seen on screen in Season 6--Diana Son is responsible for both my least favorite G/E episode ("The War At Home") and least favorite L/W episode ("Tru Love"). Dishonorable mention goes to Julie Martin for my second least favorite G/E ("Siren Call") and Gina Gionfriddo for my second least favorite L/W ("Country Crossover"). I prefer my CI episodes with meat of substance to them, but if I ever got the chance to confront any of the writers, I would definitely have bones to pick with these three, and most especially Ms. Son.I find this very interesting, Techguy. And very similar to my own experiences with the various writers. When I stop to look at the episodes I enjoy most and those I enjoy least, there are trends that point to different writers. Diana Son and Julie Martin also come up on my least fave list. Son, not only this season, but also in past seasons, Martin this season. Not only was Martin responsible for Siren Call, she's also co-credited for Story on TWAH, Privilege and World's Fair, all three are in my bottom five epis for the season. However, I wonder if some of this is because she is new to the series this season, so only has Leight's vision of the show and characters to guide her. With Son, I have enough of a sampling of actual teleplays to go by to know that she is very hit or miss for me. Tru Love, TWAH, Scared Crazy, Wasichu, False-Hearted Judges and Great Barrier are some of my least favorite episodes as far as the writing is concerned. But I loved Magnificat and A Murderer Among Us. It's interesting to see patterns like this in the writing.
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Post by ragincajun on Feb 8, 2007 13:34:17 GMT -5
Someone stated Eames called Bobby, "Goren", the only part I saw that was when she was talking to Ross, when telling him Goren was questioning a suspect. I did have reception problems. I didn't find this out of character, she only calls him Bobby when they are talking among themselves, She refers to him as Goren or det Goren when she is talking to others. Can't remember if she ever called him Bobby when talking to Deakins, but I would think Ross is still too new for her use her partners first name with. Or is there another scene I missed?
Nice to see Gorens unpuffy close up hands back.
I don't think the exchange at the bar about are we ok, was about TWAH, I think it was because this woman politians was Eames' hero, and Bobby thought she was guilty.
Did anyone notice in the opening scene before the judge was shot Ms Pagoilis(sp) had her hand over her mouth like she was in shock before the kill shot? Made me suspious of her before it happen.
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Post by Patcat on Feb 8, 2007 14:19:42 GMT -5
My memory (and fuzzy it is) is that Eames frequently called Bobby Bobby in front of Deakins. And that Deakins often called him Bobby too.
Patcat
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Feb 8, 2007 14:19:56 GMT -5
I did notice in the opening montage version of the duel that the duel master did NOT sign when he said "gentlemen" ...
but I keep thinking back to the scene at the bar, and over and above G/E's discussion... just WHY were they drinking in the first place? They were clearly there to check on scummy husbands "coat check girl" story, but if they were on the clock then neither of them should have been imbibing. We've seen Goren attempt to overlook this before, but Eames has always called him on it.
I loved what the actors brought to that scene, but it struck me as interesting. Of course neither of them paid for, or got to drink their drinks (that we saw anyway...) It was George's club, so maybe it was on him, but nevertheless...
Oh, and upon rewatching the episode, I did notice that when Maureen gets back into the car outside the funeral home and they're having the argument about going to the cemetary, Georgie Porgie is sitting next to her playing with his chalk snap line.
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Post by Sirenna on Feb 8, 2007 14:33:34 GMT -5
Has he ever called her kathryn that anyone remembers? Welcom Ruby. I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Well, no consolation emails needed for this tree-limber. I don't mind being one of the few who enjoyed the episode. Many of us are disillusioned with the past season six episodes for all the reasons mentioned on this and the warren leight interview thread and many of us can't help comparing this season as a bulk package with all of the past seasons. Not fair maybe but that way it is, I guess. It does negatively colour a person's take on each episode. Season two will always be the highlight season for me. From a stand-alone perspective though I'm finding quite a few of season six hold up as good if not great. In this one I think the crime was committed by one person (the driver) and the motivation was committed by another. That's different. Good different or bad different is another matter entirely. It's a fresh approach though. Whatever reason the senator had to stay in the marriage, apathy, victimization, mis-directed sympathy, spousal abuse, ultimately the choice to change the eventual orchestration of events lay with her and she didn't do it. Whatever reason Davo had for taking matters into his own hands and launching his rescue operation was we never explored. This seems to be an intentional, reverse way of writing the plot and the characters. Innovative and not always appreciated first time round or maybe ever because it was unsuccessful. I liked it though; both the trying and the execution. I don't think Vincent's difference is a performance choice. As someone pointed out, acting it dull or low energy maybe a diliberate choice but not necessarily a good one. I don't think he has made an acting decision here, so I don't agree that his performance is flat at all. I think he is a different actor at this stage of his life. Just like Ella's jazz vioice changed from when she was a teenager to later in her life. He's older, married with growing kids. He's not the guy who did Guy any longer. I still think the writers are struggling to write this new Vincent into the role.
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Feb 8, 2007 15:15:53 GMT -5
Locifan wrote: See, for me, this is the mark of an unsuccessful episode. If it has to be watched in slow motion in order to be appreciated, there's something seriously wrong. It's one thing if the episode works in real time and also in slo-mo. Otherwise, not so much.
But, gorensdoppelganger, I truly admire your persistence and willingness to go that extra mile! ;DThanks locifan for the acknowledgment I agree with your point as well about the episode itself as far as the enjoyment level; however, as a fan of the actors it's worth the effort. Seriously, it's amazing how much is conveyed it s a split second by these two fine performers.
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Post by Sirenna on Feb 8, 2007 18:56:13 GMT -5
I definitely think the scene between the Mr. & Mrs. Pagolis was supposed to imply spousal rape. That makes her behavior toward her marriage & its obligations all the more horrific. Yes, I would agree with this comment. I also think some people chase after the dysfunctionality as opposed to chasing after happiness. (People who end up in abusive after abusive relationships.) Often they seem to have issues in their past that lead them on this path. I'm no counselor but maybe you could comment on your experiences as a counselor with respect to that. In this case the story and the crime is all the more tragic to me because she never seemed to have a source like this. She, of all the victims, in the show's history, seemed to have the resources leave her bad marriage if she'd wanted to.
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Post by DonnaJo on Feb 8, 2007 19:29:09 GMT -5
Hi Sirenna, I do see a fair share of women in abusive relationships at my job (I work for a parish outreach program). However, the women who come to us are all trapped financially as well as physically. They stay with their abuser for practical reasons as well as psychological. I can't comment with any real experience on why a woman like Mrs. Pagodis; wealthy, self-assured, independent.... would subject herself to physical & emotional manipulation & degradation by an obvious imbecile of a husband. Maybe the episode should have included an explanation scene, perhaps of her crying on her psychiatrist's couch about how her father beat her mother, etc. etc. blah bah....
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Post by MissEllie on Feb 8, 2007 20:48:52 GMT -5
I think I mentioned this in one of my previous posts, but I believe the wife was using her situation to put herself out in the public as a "victim" when she WAS getting something out of the marriage--the sympathy of the voters, women especially, who felt sorry for her. She was using him as much as he was her. It was all about HER and her aspirations at any expense, as we saw at the end. Goren mentioned the timing of the publicity about her political aspirations and the public misbehavior of her husband.
As a side note, I work for a judge, so I see a lot of women in abusive relationships, as well as men who are abused. You'd be surprised how many mean/abusive women there are out there. It certainly doesn't get the press that the news of an abused woman garners.
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Post by ruby77 on Feb 9, 2007 3:23:11 GMT -5
Everyone is so on the money with this episode and the whole season. It has lost some of it's spark somewhere, especially with D'Onofrio's acting, which I know this topic has been beaten to death already, but I do think D'Onofrio is doing it on purpose to show the horrible changes going on in his life. Who really know's-maybe he is sick of playing Goren too and isn't bringing all he can to the role but I don't see him like that. Anyway, the point being, sweeps is coming up and maybe they are saving the BIG episodes for then.
Also, I agree with several on the board that Mrs. Pagolis is not just getting a high from her husband but also from the attention and doing a "holier than thou act" for her political career.
Again, cool board! ;D
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