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Post by quietfireca on Jan 26, 2009 15:45:23 GMT -5
So, as is my fashion, I will conjecture big time that Liz will tell Alex to either leave Major Case OR get a new partner. **ducks Patcat's bat** or that she's divorcing her husband and that will impact Alex's nephew, or that Alex should have another baby for her.... or..... It may have nothing to do with Alex.... or then again....
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Post by Patcat on Jan 26, 2009 16:37:25 GMT -5
And it may disappear from the final script or be edited out of the story.
Patcat
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Post by tjara on Jan 26, 2009 17:07:18 GMT -5
@dr Ah, you work with literature. Now I can understand your statements even better PatcatI'm betting that some of the best LOCI scenes are on that cutting floor. I'm hoping we'll at least get to see some of them on some DVD editions. Also, I'd enjoy bloopers... Ok, I think now I'm trailing off way to far...
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Post by outerbankschick on Jan 26, 2009 18:30:39 GMT -5
Tommy and Malia at the skating rink: Peter describes their world as a "coccon". Then he describes his family life as their own little garden of Eden.
After reading the last couple of pages, Bobby and Alex's own "cocoon" has come sharply into focus for me. Wow!
I'll have to noodle this one awhile!
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Post by outerbankschick on Jan 26, 2009 18:37:09 GMT -5
At this point, I don't see Alex giving Bobby up and I think she might actually resent being told she should. She loves him (I'm talking friendship here) and she knows that she's really the only stabilizing force in his life. I also think she's strong enough to not allow his drama to strangle her. She's proven that often enough.
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leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
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Post by leanonme on Jan 26, 2009 20:35:07 GMT -5
. Agreed--one's experiential reaction may invest a given text with more weight than it has. However, I think that you are feeling it as less successful because it is less ingrained--more "tacked on"--than it was in "Silver Lining" or "F.P.S." In "F.P.S." in particular the story seems almost designed to show up the Eames-Goren dynamic. The whole Eames pregnancy motive strikes me as having been incredibly carefully written. No more. I'd like to go back to the way things were, in many ways, too. Sadly, we cannot. We have to interpret the totality of the text, even if they do pull a Dallas Bobby in the shower number or worse (much as I'd like to see VDO in the shower ... um ... NO. I just hope against hope that they'll stop tinkering with the darn thing.) DR, Thank you. I have been wondering what exactly has been bothering me about later episodes, especially when they can, at times, seem to have similar elements. Your comment about them being "tacked on" hit the nail on the head. I think that is exactly it. Obviously I am having a hard time accepting things as they are. Bobby in the shower...LOL ;D
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leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
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Post by leanonme on Jan 26, 2009 20:37:53 GMT -5
leaoonme, are you referring to when Ross, Goren, Eames, Peter & Red Headed ADA were looking through the two way glass in interrogation? When a lawyer is speaking with his client alone in interrogation, Major Case would never turn the speaker on, that would be a violation of attorney/client privacy. In this case, it is as if they had an ear to the conversation, since Larry & his attorney were both signing. Seeing them was like hearing them, a violation. Peter called it "a reasonable expectation of privacy." Thanks Donna, that was bothering me. I think that I thought that if they were in interrogation, they knew others could be listening, lawyer and client or not. I got it now. Makes sense.
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leanonme
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Post by leanonme on Jan 26, 2009 21:15:06 GMT -5
@dr Agreed. But still I wonder how many people missed many of Bobby Gorens early comments about his mother/schizophrenia, because they didn't seem to be of importance. There was no context that allowed viewers to really digest that information. In retrospect these comments are a lot more important and I think one notices them much more, too. . This is the problem I am having with later seasons. Even though it was subtle, I think we learned more about Bobby from those subtle references than the obvious scenes we witnessed later. I am not dumb. I could pick up the parallels between Bobby and the thief in Silver Lining. But I think it takes a lot more personal work to pick up all the "issues" between G/E in Silencer. I don't mean that in a good way. In early episodes, you could see Goren's angst, without seeing it, know what I mean? We could watch him look at the "Daddy Our Hero" collage in Phantom, and wonder, is he just getting info about our perp, or wishing he had a family, or thinking about his own father, or all of it. While VDO was wonderful, it wasn't just him. It was a fully developed show around him. I think it is easy from as early as The Faithful, to see very clearly the impact of Bobby's mother. In fact, I just started watching CI a few months ago, before I was ever on any boards, and I do remember picking it up, even from a few episodes out of order. But, early on, if I would have seen Silencer, I think it would have been very hard to pick up that Eames was contemplating her partnership with Goren. I don't think that one can pick that up without a certain amount of background- in fact, quite a bit of it. I don't think that is KE's fault. It seems to me, that the show, somewhere along the line, decided that the audience needed everything spelled out for it. Or that the audience could no longer handle the complexity of a developed character. I don't really know what it is, I guess a lot of things. I think it is like DR said, so much of it seems tacked on now. I just refuse to believe that it has to do with my interpretation as a viewer. I think it has more to do with the skill, and depth of the show. Of course it helps to know, that while I am pretty vocal in complaining about it,( I promise I am trying to stop ), others feel the same way. Many of them aren't even around anymore.
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leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
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Post by leanonme on Jan 26, 2009 21:39:01 GMT -5
Awwww.....and see, I thought it was sweet that Ross was (awkwardly) trying to encourage Eames' interest in Peter. Deep down Ross is a sweetie, I think, and felt that Eames would benefit from being with a nice guy. ;D What bothers me is that the writers had this "maybe" relationship thing going, and then never did anything with it. A follow through would have been in order and appreciated. Even a comment in a later episode like "things didn't work out with Peter" or "he wasn't my type."Why can't we have some ongoing personal stuff with Eames, like we do with Goren? Maybe we will this season. There was some script info a few months ago regarding the season opener, which had Eames talking with her sister Liz......a "heart to heart" so it was described..... I am with you on this Donna. I thought that was a cute moment. They just never fully developed whatever it was they were trying to do there. I think Ross is a sweetie as well, and I never thought he was testing a work partner for Eames, but makiing a suggestion for a nice guy for her. Ye gads, I am so afraid of what they would do with a conversation with her sister, or a dive into Eames personal life, I can't bear to think about it. If that conversation had anything to do with ...nope, not going there.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jan 26, 2009 21:48:04 GMT -5
I envision a "heart-to-heart" giving us some insight into how Eames is feeling about her decision to become her own son's "aunt". And how her sister is coping with this as well. Do they ever plan to tell the boy? Will he ever wonder? Does he feel a special bond with his Aunt Alex without understanding exactly why?
And really, just how did Alex cope with her anger and her PTSD after her kidnapping? She was thisclose to death. We never got to see or hear about it beyond her statement to Bobby, "I'm not getting any better by myself.", which spoke volumes to me. She may as well have said "I'm not getting any better without you."
She needed normalcy and routine and she needed the companionship of her partner. She's grounded and she's steady, but she needs Bobby as much as he needs her, just in a different way. They've grown together now, like partners often do. So from those desk-staring scenes to Eames' words outside the shrink's office, I hearken back to Julian's words about his own relationship with Sylvia from "The Gift" -
"We just don't do very well without each other."
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Post by deathroe on Jan 27, 2009 3:58:26 GMT -5
A convo with a sister strikes me as very fan-fiction-like. Not that there's anything bad about that, necessarily
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Post by tjara on Jan 27, 2009 4:44:20 GMT -5
leanonmeI, too, prefer the more subtle, seemingly out of context comments of earlier seasons - especially if they start adding up. You get the feeling that there is some depth to the character, some continuity, but you can't quite grab it. But as much as I appreciate them, I think you can't stay on that road forever. The question is always how to explore it - and I think LOCI went from one to the other extreme, giving away a lot at once, though it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. (or I don't perceive it to be that way) I think small details that seemingly are out of context, but end up making the story are great... That's because you might miss it at first, or because you notice and think "how akward" - only to later realize "Jeez - how could I miss thaaaaaaaat!" I think that's what good crime shows are about, or lets say, an element, that has to be incorporated now and then... It's walking the line between sudden twists and foreshadowing, I guess.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jan 27, 2009 7:42:55 GMT -5
As I'm sure you are all aware, the show changed when Rene Balcer was replaced as show runner by Warren Leight. Mr. Leight & VDO both decided to change things up - make the Goren family saga the front & center storyline for many of the episodes. Goodbye subtlety. Others could explain it better, but Leight's background as a play right has alot to do with the parallels we see, and the difficulty in how we see them. On one hand the show was dumbed down to cater to a bigger audience in the hopes of higher ratings. On the other, the talented & highly intelligent Leight needed to be creative (or recognize the die hard fans) so he added layers to the show - parallels, the use of color & depth, even the two way mirror in interrogation. In "Amends," there is the barely visible reflection of the Chief of D's while Goren extracts the cop killer confession from Victor. It took multiple viewing before I caught it. Talk about subtle. I may be wrong, but I don't see the writers going back five seasons and using Eames' surrogate pregnancy as a current storyline. Too much time has gone by without a single word regarding her nephew/son. And Liz might be Eames' other sister, not the nephew's mother. It could have something to do with their Dad. He could be sick. The mother had a stroke way back, but that's to similar to the Frances story. IDK, I just get the feeling that it has to do with Eames' lack of a personal life, or the stresses of her job. And from what I've heard, this scene is at the very end of the season opener, so it could be a set up for a continued storyline.
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Post by Patcat on Jan 27, 2009 9:06:28 GMT -5
One of the many early criticisms of LOCI is that its plots were too complicated. I agree that the plots are more straightforward and more things are spelled out, but I think if you compare to shows like many of the CSIs and THE MENTALIST, LOCI still offers complicated and multilayer stories.
As a writer, Warren Leight is more interest in family dynamics, particularly father son relationships. It's in his plays.
Patcat
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Post by tjara on Jan 27, 2009 9:28:44 GMT -5
I guess that's my trouble then. I LOVE complicated and subtle. Use your brain while watching... I obsess about details. (nono, you couldn't tell from my previous posts to this board, could you? *g* )
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