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Post by gibbsfandan on Apr 4, 2007 11:57:50 GMT -5
I agree with those who've said that the part of the story dealing with the culture and subcultures of the deaf community was extremely interesting, but that the essence of the crime story was not truly remarkable. The motive, like Techguy mentioned, turned out to be pretty ordinary. Still, I got very involved in the issues centering on the deaf people, and I was pulled in by the effect of having the sound turn off when we were shown things from a deaf person's POV.
As Donna said, Goren continues to look fatigued and possibly having to work hard to stay fully involved with investigations (and this case did seem emotionally draining for the detectives, maybe from the strain of dealing with a community where they hadn't expected to find so much resistance and anger on the part of some people.) From what we saw of Frances Goren in Brother's Keeper, I'd also guess that giving her the love and support she needs is the main source of his fatigue. Concern for Frank, naturally, would just add to that.
I'm glad a couple of people have mentioned the backstory to be found on the NBC boards; I'd like to check that out. Much of what was said by and about the deaf community in the show dovetailed with what I read in a mystery by Elizabeth George, For The Sake Of Elena. The deaf characters in that story also differentiated between a more radical, separatist subculture, and those who disagree with separatism of any kind (as Malia said, I think; and Sarahlee, thanks for the info from your personal experience).
Eames seemed kind of tired herself, or maybe flustered and distracted, at times; and I thought I saw that even before they really got into the case.
The translator seemed fairly angry and tired of the pressure by the end. A frustrated Goren ("I'll take them any way I can get them") kept pushing for translation, and maybe Peter hoped that Alex would take his own side more strongly. She did seem torn. After that, it's hard to see Peter as interested in pursuing a relationship.
The legal-ethics issue of "reasonable expectation of privacy," and Peter's feeling about "eavesdropping," were indeed very interesting. I had to wonder how conflicted Peter might be about being a policeman, since at least at the skating rink, there was clearly not a reasonable expectation of privacy. I don't understand why that was a bone of contention for him.
I have no problem with episodes focusing at times on issues that are important but not well-known to most people. Still, I was ready for a strong, traditionally CI crime story, and felt let down in that regard.
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Post by SarahIvy on Apr 4, 2007 13:52:44 GMT -5
This was an entirely passable episode, good but not great. Like others have mentioned, I think all the delving into deaf culture was fascinating, but I agree the actual crime plot suffered for it. It was simplistic, and even if he did just shoot the Dean to frame the playwright, there should have been more exploration of the emotions that pushed him to SUCH a drastic and horrific crime.
I thought the main gal, Malia, was just wonderful.
Also, Ross' little chat with Eames about dating was sort of charmingly awkward. He can be so dour and cynical in tone it's sometimes nice to get a reminder of his honest and positive interest in his detectives.
You know, I think what D'Onofrio has been doing this season acting wise has been pretty impressive....I'm in the camp that believes the fatigue, dulled responses, lack of the Goren mannerisms and quirks and moments of brilliance are all intentional. Frankly, I think it's one of the best portrayals of stress and depression I've ever seen.
BUT...not to be unappreciative of craft and all, but good gravy I'd really like this arc for Goren to end. While realistic, it doesn't make for the great TV that LOCI is when Goren is at the top of his game. With Goren in the state he's currently in, LOCI becomes more of an average detective drama...granted a good one, but....eh.
I'm rambling and probably not making my point very clearly.
I guess it's that I do believe that D'Onofrio is doing excellent work, and I appreciate his portrayal, it's just gone on long enough for TV Land. I'd like the next stage in all of this to be reached, I would like a 7th season, and in that season I would like to see Goren get back to being himself, with extra added depth and even better insights gained from the rough road he has traversed this year.
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Post by hannah on Apr 4, 2007 14:47:05 GMT -5
About the part where the mother was happy that her child was deaf; this might seem odd, but really it kind of makes sense. I'm not saying its right or wrong. For example; haven't you, or haven't you ever heard of someone else wishing a certain lifestyle on their/your children? Like some people hope that their children will have a certain believe, religion, sexuality, or political views etc... and people ask "why would you wish that?" Isn't this kind of the same? That they want their children to fit into their community?
I think that they classify them so differently from other people who can hear. Like when the suspect said he wanted a deaf judge, deaf police officer, and a deaf jury of his peers. You can tell how much he is devoted to his community and not anyone else's. You don't see that with anyone else. Black people wouldn't just get a black jury. Jewish people wouldn't get just a Jewish jury and women wouldn't just get female jury's. So why does he feel he should get something like that?
And coming up with a cure for being deaf might be just as insulting as coming up with a medical cure for being gay (most homosexuals I know defiantly would be insulted.)
They probably think they don't need to be fixed. It may be an extra challenge in life, but maybe its something they want to deal with. If it isn't broke, then why fix it? Could be a reason why they seemed cold to people who were different.
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Post by Metella on Apr 4, 2007 15:07:18 GMT -5
I've never understood the "separate" view either. I like differences - I can sign 3/4 of the alphabet (badly) and 2 words. This does not make a speedy conversation. ! However if there is patience on both sides, then fun stuff can be had. I do think being deaf is a handicap - it prevents them from doing some things, it can be a serious threat to safety - however, just to use the label is not to be denigrating - not to say they have to be "fixed" at any cost. It is viable to refuse even a slam dunk implant or surgery. How they cope can be a source of pride - so I get that part. Just not looking at hearing people as "them" ..... that attitude has caused a wealth of trouble for all sorts of people. Amen to the jury bit - just above Holly. I would think he want playwrites over general deaf people They would be more incline to give him a pass .... OK - to the storyline - I'm following the herd on this - done & dull; but not horrid.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 4, 2007 16:10:30 GMT -5
Me too, and I know we're in the minority here, SarahIvy. Seeing Vincent in recent interviews & photos, the difference is sometimes startling. VDO looks great. Goren looks like h*ll, to quote Eames in BS. I posted on another thread my belief that the obvious exhaustion displayed during this episode was Goren staying up nights seriously boning up on his sign language skills. That would explain the dramatic improvement in signing skills at the end with Tommy in the aria. Remember in Silver Lining, Eames "Don't you ever sleep?..Goren,"There's a lot to do." Finally, I think the big difference in attitude about a child being born deaf has all to do with whether the parents themselves were born deaf or not. If you've never experienced hearing, you have no idea what you are missing. If you have, you would never want to deny your child the wonder of music, laughter, birds singing etc.
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Post by ragincajun on Apr 4, 2007 17:06:04 GMT -5
Good job everyone on the insites on Goren. But just seeing him tired and not at the top of his game without seeing the behind the Goren goings on is getting old, it needs to end. If CI isn't renewed and the show ends with Goren like this it will be a big disappointment.
Loved him smelling the potato, how he just wiped it off the wall and took a sniff. Like someone else stated think VDO might have been just getting over a cold or had a cold he did sound hoarse.
Noticed a possible date error again, there was one in Players. The murder took place on St. Patrick's Day on a Sat. Feb. 17, When Eames and Ross are walking down the stairs talking about the Doctors trip to Atlantic City, she shows him her cell phone with the message about the 9mm gun, the date on the cell phone is Feb. 9, Friday. a week before the murder. Since they got rid of the date cards, seems they are getting sloppy with the dates.
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Post by anniebob on Apr 4, 2007 17:34:34 GMT -5
I see that you are on line ragincajun. Hope your tests went well. I'm still a rookie at LOCI, having recently discovered the show in reruns on USA. I did not like the Silencer episode last night at all. I thought it was extremely boring. The information about the deaf community was interesting, but the rest of the show was flat. I've read other's thoughts about VDO in the most recent episodes. Is he really acting( tired-looking, older--looking then his years, etc. or is that his appearance in real life? His whole appearance has changed in the last two years. He used to look so dapper and was very quick-witted and very physical in doing his job. But he just comes across now as a tired, very gray, overweight detective. I miss the old Goren. Even Eames looked tired in this episode, like they werre both so bored and would rather be somewhere else.
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Post by gibbsfandan on Apr 4, 2007 19:04:59 GMT -5
Hi Anniebob, glad you've found CI. It's a great show, but I can see where it would throw you off to see the changes in Goren between earlier seasons and the past two seasons.
I agree with SarahIvy, DonnaJo and RaginCajun — and everyone else with this opinion — that the Robert Goren we're currently seeing is a result of VDO's very fine acting. I think D'Onofrio has put a lot of thought into how best to portray Goren (an unusual, and, IMO, highly controlled person even when normal) as the detective deals with one major stressor after another. Besides what he's going through with his mother, it seems likely to me that he's struggling to keep himself together, too.
There are a number of things, sometimes pretty subtle but still visible, that point to such a conclusion; and they're not behaviors that VDO has in real life, to my knowledge. I'm convinced that D'Onofrio is putting himself as completely into the part of Det. Goren as he's done in past roles — Full Metal Jacket, for instance.
I also thought that Eames looked tired. Maybe they filmed during a spell of real-life stress and fatigue for her, and just decided to make that part of her character for this episode; or maybe Kathryn Erbe decided to take on those attributes to show Eames's reaction to all the stress she's been through on the job — say, if she's coping with Goren being harder to work with, or whatever. (Or maybe the director or showrunner decided KE just needed to show a different side of Eames than what we usually see.)
I didn't see boredom, myself, but I did think there was more frustration than usual for the detectives.
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Post by Techguy on Apr 4, 2007 19:53:06 GMT -5
I don't doubt either that the fatigue and stress shown by Goren are a result of Vincent D'Onofrio's deliberate acting choices and immersing himself into the role to show what the detective has gone through in his personal life this season. But as SarahIvy has observed, dedication to one's craft is all well and good, but it doesn't make for very entertaining TV. I've said before and repeat it again, the quirky energized Goren of CI's earlier seasons is what caught my attention. If the Goren of Season 6 was my first introduction to the show, I know I never would have stayed with CI for 6 episodes, much less 6 years.
The subject has also been raised about Goren's increased signing ability from the beginning to the end of this episode. I know Goren is supposed to be a quick learner, but the idea that he could go from needing the signing cop's help early on to conducting an entire aria while signing for the deaf perp is totally preposterous. With or without time line cards to indicate how much time has passed, how much time can Goren realistically dedicate to learning sign language with all that is on his plate regarding his mother? The stress and fatigue have to interfere with his concentration no matter how quickly he absorbs information. The idea that Goren could somehow absorb enough sign language to conduct an aria has absolutely no credibilty for me.
One other thing--how and where did Tommy get the 9mm Glock he used to shoot the doctor?
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 4, 2007 20:18:19 GMT -5
The idea that Goren could somehow absorb enough sign language to conduct an aria has absolutely no credibility for me. It's about as credible as Goren psychologically disarming four prison guards in a 2 minute time period with no significant background information on any of them (See Stress Position, Season 4) ;D
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Post by gibbsfandan on Apr 4, 2007 20:26:35 GMT -5
I agree that it's about time for Goren's problems to be resolved, and for him to return to the character that drew in the show's fans — at least if there's going to be another season. If there are only two G/E episodes left, they could still probably manage realistically to give Goren enough closure to satisfy fans that the (fictional) future looks better for him.
*If* there's to be a Season 7, I sincerely hope that CI will go back to classic form for one last year. I haven't regretted the trip to Goren's dark side, but I also wouldn't have been interested in it if I hadn't gotten to know him (so to speak) from years past. — Will end by referring back to what SarahIvy said about what she'd like to see in the hoped-for Season 7.
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lodi
Rookie
Posts: 20
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Post by lodi on Apr 4, 2007 20:29:57 GMT -5
I agree with Techguy and SarahIvy - the depressed, tired Goren is not so entertaining - even if it is good acting - unless, they do a bit of subplot addressing why he is depressed/tired, like on Brother's Keeper. Does he just seem flat because of the weight gain? Maybe it's harder to be a physical actor at that weight. Would an actor gain that much weight on purpose for a role that doesn't specifically call for it? Maybe he quit smoking or something. If Goren is depressed, I would like to see more of what's behind it. Bring Rita Merino back - now, she's entertaining!
I found this episode very flat and dull. The only interesting piece worth pondering for me was the ethical piece about eavesdropping, and frankly I don't think any detective would give it a second thought in a public place. They would eavesdrop on anyone, within the confines of the law.
I wonder how long we have to wait for the next new episode.
Lodi
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Post by Techguy on Apr 4, 2007 20:38:31 GMT -5
The idea that Goren could somehow absorb enough sign language to conduct an aria has absolutely no credibility for me. It's about as credible as Goren psychologically disarming four prison guards in a 2 minute time period with no significant background information on any of them (See Stress Position, Season 4) ;D Actually, I find the "Stress Position" scenario a lot more credible because of the added Logan factor--remember his remark about what NY would do to cop killers? The other element that makes SP more credible is, realistically where were the guards going to go assuming they did take down Goren, Logan and the nurse? The prison was under lockdown and surrounded. The guards didn't have time to kill 3 people and then plan how to cover up 3 murders by planting evidence to put suspicion on the prisoners. I don't see Goren psychologically disarming the prison guards so much as driving home the point that the standoff was over and there's no escaping accountability for what they had done.
On the other hand, Goren absorbing sign language ostensibly by osmosis is beyond my ability to suspend disbelief while watching TV.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Apr 4, 2007 20:57:24 GMT -5
This episode kept me interested because I couldn't figure out who the killer was in 20 minutes. I thought this was a good episode. I talked to one of my friend about this episode because her mother is deaf. I know nothing about deaf people or of their culture. She felt the episode focused too much on the separatists and not enough on the inclusionists. She doesn't think most deaf people have the attitude that was shown on CI last night. She thinks they are more evenly split. This kinda responds to Holly's post and to the episode at the same time: I agree that the notion that deaf people need to be "fixed" is both stupid and insulting. BUT, I think they should have an option to have their hearing restored i f they chose so. Having an option isn't being forceful or insulting them. They have every right in the world not to want their hearing restored but they don't have the right to interfere with the right of those who do. My friend's mother had her hearing restored as a teen and it was at first a terrifying ordeal for heal. I couldn't imagine leaving in total silence and then hearing sound. There is almost no way to prepare for that shock. How do you explain sound to someone? How do you prepare them? Every sound fascinated her mother. Tickling glasses, rustling tissues, knocks on doors, birds. A note: My friend was amused by English sign being highlighted, instead of ASL. She thinks people may see this episode and not realize ASL is vastly different from English sign. She thinks Goren did a good job in signing, even if he wasn't expressive with his signing. I don't know how to explain what she meant. I'm talking more about what someone else thinks more than what I think so I'm kinda going OT here so, back to the episode and what I actually think: I thought this was a good episode. The motive was generic yes but, in all, I think it was well written, one of the better of this season. I don't think anyone was unfairly portrayed but I do agree it needed a bit of balance from the inclusionists point of view. Ross is finally starting to lose that condenscending tone that irks me. And still Eames, snapping at Goren in the ice rink when he tried to get her to help him about the interpreter. It's just like her chilliness to him in "Albatross". Maybe it's nothing but, I think it's worth noting. The idea that Goren could somehow absorb enough sign language to conduct an aria has absolutely no credibilty for me. Techguy, you reminded of a point I forgot to make. I asked my friend if it was possible for Goren to learn enpugh sign language to be able to sign to the killer at the end and she thought it was possible for several reasons. 1- Goren already knew some sign language 2- There aren't as many signs as there are words. 3- Learning English sign is much simpler and much quicker than learning ASL. (She wouldn't have believed Goren could have learned ASL that quickly.) She thinks it was possible for him to learn more vocabulary within the span of the crime (about 2 -3 weeks) that enabled him to learn to sign. She thinks most of the words he used was simplistic and not difficult to learn. I hope I said that right....lol
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Post by hannah on Apr 4, 2007 21:12:33 GMT -5
This kinda responds to Holly's post and to the episode at the same time: I agree that the notion that deaf people need to be "fixed" is both stupid and insulting. BUT, I think they should have an option to have their hearing restored i f they chose so. Having an option isn't being forceful or insulting them. They have every right in the world not to want their hearing restored but they don't have the right to interfere with the right of those who do. I totally agree. If they want hearing then they should go for it. I wonder how the mother would have reacted if her baby was not deaf. I think she might resent her
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