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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 6, 2007 15:30:55 GMT -5
I believe the "call your partner" comment is Ross' petty way of getting a little dig in on Goren. It is disrespectful. Ross and Goren seem to have a personality issue. I think Ross sees Eames as a more orthodox cop and treats her with the respect a higher rank officer would/should treat a subordinate. Her detective methods are more his cup of tea or what he is accustomed to. He can relate to them. Goren's on the other hand, are different and as such make Ross a little unaccepting. There is also the battle of wills. It may be subtle but is there. Deakins let Goren do his thing. Deakins came to admire Goren's tactics because they produced. Ross is different. Perhaps a little more narrowminded? Not as flexible.
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Aug 6, 2007 16:04:25 GMT -5
Ross is a wonderful fascinating enigma... by all appearances he appears to care about and support his detectives and yet he's at times downright rude to them. He knew Eames' home addy off the top of his head during "Blindspot"... but in TWAH he didn't know she'd been married and then widowed? Would that not have been in her jacket with the home address? It's like he's only gotten part of the story on his people... or maybe hopefully coming to see that there's more to them than what's in their files...
It struck me when I rewatched Flipped some time recently that when Deakins left MCS he may have left a far worse reputation than I had initially considered -- probably because "we" know what really happened... but when the boss leaves under rumors of selling out other cops... not a good thing for the NYPD... so Ross seems to be having a very tough uphill battle to restore the reputation and integrity of his squad... perhaps leading to his being wound so tight so much of the time... and all the comments about not making him look bad...
But I love characters with personality traits that are diametrically opposed to each other. Makes for great drama! Watching Ross struggle to deal with Goren during Endgame was such a treat...
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Post by Patcat on Aug 6, 2007 16:34:39 GMT -5
I think part of the problem between Goren and Ross is that neither man is used to being the second smartest guy in the room (g).
But I agree that the Major Case Squad is dealing with a shadow. It's possible that only Goren and Eames know the real story behind Deakins' resignation, although I like to think Eames has a network of family and friends in the NYPD that would let the real story come out, as well as Deakins' supporters. But Ross may feel that Goren and Eames are Deakins' people, and he has to treat them accordingly. Although that wouldn't explian why he treats Logan comparatively kindly.
Patcat
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Post by musicwench on Aug 6, 2007 17:54:39 GMT -5
I believe the "call your partner" comment is Ross' petty way of getting a little dig in on Goren. It is disrespectful. Ross and Goren seem to have a personality issue. I think Ross sees Eames as a more orthodox cop and treats her with the respect a higher rank officer would/should treat a subordinate. Her detective methods are more his cup of tea or what he is accustomed to. He can relate to them. Goren's on the other hand, are different and as such make Ross a little unaccepting. There is also the battle of wills. It may be subtle but is there. Deakins let Goren do his thing. Deakins came to admire Goren's tactics because they produced. Ross is different. Perhaps a little more narrowminded? Not as flexible. Okay, here I go sounding like a Ross cheerleader again but I can't help it, I'm fascinated by the character and find him much more interesting that Deakins and Carver together (I do miss them but if their return meant no Ross, I'd take Ross). Good points about why Ross treats Eames and even Logan a lot better than he treats Goren. They're the more traditional cops and Ross understands that. However, like Patcat pointed out and it's something I've always thought as well, Deakins' didn't take to Goren right away either. In early episodes he gives Alex an "Atta girl, Alex" and Goren gets the old "magic gut" comment. Deakins just seemed to like Bobby more because he had a different style of operating than Ross does. I don't think Ross is narrow-minded. He's too smart to be considered that, IMO. Also, if Goren wants Ross to respect him he should perhaps show some respect in return because all season I've seen him as 50 percent responsible for their blow-ups. Perhaps he just got so used to Deakins letting him do things his way without too much argument, that Ross is frustrating him and he's lashing out. Ross has only been with Major Case for about a year and in that year, Goren hasn't been his most stable emotionally. Deakins took a while to get used to Goren and I think Ross will too. More so because as I said, he comes across as kind of a control freak. As for why Goren is the way he is with Ross, we already know he doesn't deal with changes well. I think the whole problem he had with Bishop was he kept pointing out to her that Eames would do this or Eames would like that because he resented her for not being Eames. LOL At least that's my take on it. He couldn't adapt to Bishop very well - eccentricities or not - so it made it even harder for her to adapt to him, IMO. I think right now we're seeing Bobby not adapting to Ross very well because he's not Deakins.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 6, 2007 18:26:34 GMT -5
I remember in TWAH the girl's father made a comment to Ross something about "and these are your best detectives". I know that's not exact but close enough. So that says to me that Ross knows the Eames/Goren team is good. But he doesn't interact with Goren in that way. Yes, this has been a trying time for Goren. He has not been at his most stable. He still got the job done. In the beginning Deakins was at odds with Goren and his techniques. He did though, come to see Goren as a first rate interrogator, detective and profiler. Ross should eventually come to see that also. It just seems to be taking longer......
Goren's frustration level has always been an issue. In Rocketman when Goren walks around to the trunk of the car that held the wig/diapers/etc., a uniformed officer was poking around in the contents of that trunk. Goren was visibly upset with the officer and quickly moved in and took control of the trunk and the space the officer had been occupying. Deakins had a way of defusing Goren's frustration level. Ross seems to feed it.
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 6, 2007 19:16:36 GMT -5
In Vincent's Endgame interview, he confesses that this past season was written as the destruction of Robert Goren. Was the Ross character brought in by Leight to exacerbate that destruction? Ross's barbs & sarcastic comments to an already emotionally angst ridden Detective is like kicking someone who is already down. It's obvious to me that the character was written to further along the Goren angst.
Deakins got to know & trust a Detective at the top of his game, a man full of confidence, drive & amazing ability. Ross gets to work with a guy who's obviously bowed under the weight of a tremendous emotional burden. That would explain the different attitude of each Captain to the character.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 6, 2007 19:59:50 GMT -5
In defense of Ross, to outsiders he always supported Goren and Eames. With the press, the DA Office, the Brass, he always supported them, even if he didn't agree with them. In SILENCER and MASQUERADE he ran interference with the DA, and in SIREN CALL he worried about them and warned them about the small town police force.
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 6, 2007 21:03:39 GMT -5
You're right Patcat, Ross is truly loyal to his Detectives. It's how you view your family, it's OK if you criticize them but don't let anyone else do it. Ross is big on that concept - the NYPD family. Especially his little family of Major Case. But like any family, you can hurt those you care about. Ross & Goren remind me of a father & son, both posturing for position, both needing to be right. Goren resents Ross, the father, for telling him how he thinks & what he should or shouldn't do. Ross is frustrated with Goren, who's behavior he finds unsatisfactory. Eames is the mother in the middle, trying to placate both men (been there, done that myself).
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Post by deathroe on Aug 7, 2007 15:10:28 GMT -5
DonnaJo's comment on Eames being "in the middle" makes me understand better why Eames is upset with Goren in Silencers: "Don't put me in the middle." That seemed very harsh to me, but when you think of it, Eames has had to suffer on Goren's account all season. Maybe they should stop that and move on to something else now ...
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Post by Techguy on Aug 7, 2007 23:36:25 GMT -5
I said this very early on when Ross arrived on the scene: he knows the circumstances of his predecessor Deakins' departure, and is determined to avoid a similar fate. If corruption in the force, ie Frank Adair, can reach out from prison to defame and force the resignation of someone with Deakins' integrity, Ross is going to want all his i's dotted and t's crossed and won't stand for a somewhat loose cannon like Goren to be the cause of his (Ross') downfall. That's how I rationalize Ross asking Eames the senior partner to keep an eye on him in "Blind Spot."
And let's face it. Goren has a history of having problems with authority figures, so Ross' new style is going to grate on the detective. The detective and the captain are both Type A personalities, and thus bound to repel one another with the force of their respective natures. Goren has been childish and unprofessional (TWAH), and Ross responded in kind, preferring not even to call him by name and refer to him as "your partner" to Eames. The stage for continued future conflict has been set, and I have no doubt the tenuous Goren/Ross relationship will continue to be rocky.
As I've also said before, so much in "Endgame" and throughout Season 6 has been vague and ambiguous, even the nature of the Goren/Eames relationship. I attribute that to the possibility of cancellation hanging over the show, and so darkness and a bleak CI landscape ruled. Now that the show moves on to USA, I don't feel we have to have all questions answered as it would come across as a farewell tour conjuring up even more thoughts of cancellation after everything is revealed and there's nothing left to say. Let some things stay in the shadows, such as Goren's paternity, but by all means clarify where Goren and Eames stand with each other and build on that. Show us Goren moving on after Mom passed away, but don't spend the entire season with Goren languishing in the void of responsibility for her care. I don't care who Goren's father is, or whether his mother dallied with others besides Brady. Preoccupation with these lurid details raises the unwelcome spectre of the never-ending melodramatic story continuing ad nauseum. I hope CI gives it a rest.
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Post by Sirenna on Aug 8, 2007 16:57:38 GMT -5
I said this very early on when Ross arrived on the scene: he knows the circumstances of his predecessor Deakins' departure, and let's face it. Goren has a history of having problems with authority figures, so Ross' new style is going to grate on the detective. Agreed. Ross imbues humour with every pointed comment he makes on Goren. He sees them fall, agonizes over his fate as well as his squads but sees "the light at the end of the tunnel" too. His humour is always for one goal. To redirect and recharch his worker bees. And it works. I see him as the squad leader to take his charges out of the depths into the light of a fresh new world. they are all meant to survive and thrive and he is just the jaded humourist to take them there.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 8, 2007 19:31:18 GMT -5
H-m-m. I don't see any humor in anything Ross does. I don't see him getting any of the humor (little it's admittedly been this season) that passes between Goren and Eames or that gets directed at him. One of the problems I do have with the character of Ross is that he doesn't have much of a sense of humor.
Sirenna, do you see Ross' humor as sarcastic or ironic?
Patcat
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Post by Sirenna on Aug 8, 2007 20:30:54 GMT -5
sarcastic, ironic and dry. Dry humour is always the funniest to me in 'real life'. It hits you when you least expect it but most need it.
I don't think sarcasm is a bad thing. It can get personal and people sometimes pass off sarcastic remarks (that are hurtful) as witticism. Their loss. They don't get it but use it to mask an insecurity and allow themselves to be cruel I think. Sarcasm used the way Jonathon Swift used it and irony the way, my personal favourite, Mark Twain used it is the et of pitome of understanding in a cruel world - the sifting of humane truth in a swamp of malcontent.
That describes LO: CI.
Evil pervades for most of the show with hard-to-find nuggets of golden truth, hope and understanding often only illuminated by humour. Often we wouldn't notice them were it not for that device. (For instance deathroe when Goren takes over the kitchen as part of his interrogation.)
Let me mull and think of specific examples to bolster what I'm trying to say. I want to give your insightful question the full weight of my consideration, patcat.
I've always loved the humour, both written and improvised, in this show.
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Post by Techguy on Aug 11, 2007 0:38:14 GMT -5
I decided to watch the rerun on NBC tonight even though I have two copies of the episode on tape.
I caught the detail that Brady was in the Army for 8 years, and dated Frances in the 1950s before he went in the Army and before she married. Brady came home on leave on several occasions, once during the weekend Kennedy was elected--the year before Bobby Goren was born--and then again when Bobby was 3 years old for the infamous Cooperstown weekend when he attacked Frances.
If Brady returned to the Army after traumatizing Frances, it's possible the murder of the German girl in his 60's scrapbook occurred after this incident, which suggests it's possible all of Brady's murders took place after the Cooperstown weekend. I wondered earlier if Brady's murder spree was set off when he lost Frances for good, and now think it's possible, even likely, that weekend destroyed Brady as much as it did Frances.
It also occurred to me that Bobby can find out if he and Frank have the same father by testing their own DNA and not having to deal with Brady's. If Bobby's and Frank's match, that would mean they have the same biological parents--but not who the father is. Frances and Brady dated in the 50's, and Frank is 3 years older than Bobby which means Frank was born in 1958 since we know Bobby was born in 1961. Is it possible Frances had Frank out of wedlock, then married Goren Sr.? And would that explain why Goren Sr. gave Frank a hard time as a child and never cut him any slack, which is how Bobby described it in "Gemini"?
Each time I've watched this episode I got answers and also thought of more questions.
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Post by ragincajun on Aug 11, 2007 9:50:23 GMT -5
What if uncle Mark is also Frank's Dad? Wouldn't that be something.
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