outsider
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by outsider on May 15, 2007 18:21:00 GMT -5
I need to watch this one again too. Some other thoughts, if these have already been brought up and in my early morning skimming I missed it, my sincere apologies.
Could it be that daddy, who supposedly abandoned Bobby, was not the horrible person he was made out to be? What if mummy had been the only one who had been fooling around, and not Daddy. Bobby might only have Mum's version of why he was gone so much.
She has shown herself to be very needy and demanding -- a classic narcissist. It is all about her. She left her 7 year old son alone in charge of 4 year old Bobby for the weekend so she could be with her lover. That is child neglect.
What if daddy suspected she was cheating on him from the get go, didn't know if his sons were in fact his sons. What if she drove him away? Just a thought. That kind of woman never takes responsibility, it is always someone else's fault. I can picture her telling Bobby how horrible his Daddy was, when in fact she might have driven him away by her infidelity. If so, that would throw his world view entirely upside down. Mummy was always the victim in terms of her dead-beat hubby in Bobby's eyes. Maybe it was daddy who was victimized by a totally selfish cheating wife who bore children who may not have been his?
Another thing worth exploring is the yellow legal pad. Eames said something to the effect that Roy had left it for Bobby. That he gave the dates and names of everything that had happened. Maybe the clue to his parenthood and/or his brother's is there. Just a thought.
What an amazing episode, there was stuff that only the true fans would get.
Question, did Goren ever say when Daddy left the family, how old he was?
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Post by outerbankschick on May 15, 2007 18:30:26 GMT -5
Posted by Sirenna on Yesterday at 10:38pm Oh and Eames loves him so much, (in a completely non-shipper way) she would pretend to be his beard if his dying mom requested it - and that doesn't get into the half of it. She was. She was his knight - charging after Captain Ross like she did. So much pressure on a guy that's still called upon by everyone, fictional and virtual, us and the story, to be brilliant. And he is. Wow. I'm with you, Sirenna. WOW! It's all I can manage at this moment. Just wow! Vincent was amazing! And I loved the way Alex went after Ross and told him he couldn't take Bobby off the case. Way to go Alex for having your partner's back. I'll be back to post after I digest all this. I'm still in that "awesome episode" daze. WHEW!
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outsider
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by outsider on May 15, 2007 18:40:56 GMT -5
Just hit me. The first episode introducing the new season, ended with a shot of Bobby sitting in a hospital at Eames side. And the last epi ends with a shot of him sitting by a bedside again -- interesting way to bookend the Bobby-Eames season. I don't know that there is any hidden symbolism intended, just similar shots as bookends. It could however symbolize that this marked the beginning and end of a chapter in his life.
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misty98
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 61
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Post by misty98 on May 15, 2007 18:51:05 GMT -5
Like Donna, I'm very conflicted about this episode. The performances in this episode are among the best I've seen in the series so far. Rita Moreno, in particular, I thought gave a very moving, and yet understated performance. At times, I didn't know whether I wanted to hug Frances or put a pillow over her head.
I know I'll catch some flak for this, but I have to say that for me, Vincent's performance in this episode was not Emmy worthy, except for those 15-20 seconds leading up to Bobby's assault of Brady. The attack itself was a cheap theatrical ploy. It was too Stabler-esque for me. Bobby's true strength is in his intellect and reason, not his physical might.
I'll also jump on the "Kathryn Erbe is under-utilized" band wagon, and I'll add that the elevator scene was completely out of character for Eames. There is no way on God's green earth that Alex would allow him to go back to Brady, alone, without back up, knowing that Bobby's mother was probably another one of Brady's victims--forget the fact that he's told her to "back off" in the past. It just wouldn't happen--maybe before "The War at Home" or "Brother's Keeper," but not now. She knew he was "this" close to losing it.
A couple of other random "nits" to pick...
- "...and he has three names, too." (Ross, as they discuss Brady's career as a serial killer) Yeah, I rank that line right up there with, "Houston, we have a problem."
- Why did they check the shack and have divers check the water BEFORE checking under the crocus bed? Brady did all but drop an anvil on Bobby's head when he said that he planted a bed of crocus (or is that croci? -LOL) on the property.
- What happened to Frank's "old lady"?
- More importantly, what happened to Frank's speech? He sounded like he was permanently stoned in "Brother's Keeper." Did he check into a McDetox Center on his way to Atlantic City?
- Okay, so we're supposed to believe that Frank is the OLDER brother? Did anyone else look at the two of them sitting side by side in the diner (as they were talking about how older brother Frank took care of younger brother Bobby) and say, "Huh?" Yeah, we know Bobby is stressed, and that stress can age one, but come on...
- No security guard is going to stand by, stone faced, while a cop beats up a prisoner, no matter what the prisoner did. (Also, hey, didn't SVU do that scene last week?...and the week before...and possibly the week before that?)
Okay, despite how it may sound, overall, I did like the episode. In retrospect, I wish they had stretched the episode out another half-hour, or even an hour, to fill in some of the blanks and give more depth to the story. Frankly, as much as I like Logan, I would gladly sacrifice next week's episode, "Renewal," for a two-part episode version of "Endgame."
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Post by Cassie on May 15, 2007 19:00:27 GMT -5
I just got done re-watching it. In the episode of "See Me" from Season 2, as Goren and Eames are walking out of the Garcia's home. Goren is sharing with Eames that his mom lives at Carmel Ridge and she shares a room with another woman who likes to paint too. Goren shares with Eames the difference in their style of painting. I believe Goren claims that her roommate liked to paint in bright red and yellows. implying that it had something to do with her being bi-polar (Its been so long since I have seen that episode, but I remember some of it) Anyway.... If you look in Frances room you will see on all of her walls, Paintings that have never been framed, and when Goren is sitting in the dark after his mom's death. The canvas are sitting on the floor waiting for him to take home with him.
I thought that was neat, they kept true to the character of Mrs Goren from the earlier shows, that she liked to paint
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Post by ragincajun on May 15, 2007 19:01:07 GMT -5
I think he told Nicole he was 12 when his dad left. I need to watch again tonight before commenting more, I enjoyed it but still in the WOW state right now. What if they check the DNA and neither papa Goren or Uncle Mark is his dad?
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Post by outerbankschick on May 15, 2007 19:06:03 GMT -5
Outsider, a quick note about Frances' infidelity. When she's telling Bobby about "uncle" Mark, she says that she used to ask him to come over when he was on leave and "hang shelves". And that Bobby's father got the point. I took that to mean that what was good for the goose, yada, yada. I figured she meant that if her hubby could fool around, then so could she.
And Goren's father left when he was eleven. Nicole reveals that bit of information when she's poking at him in A Person Of Interest. She pulled the public record of his parents divorce and used it to needle him.
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misty98
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 61
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Post by misty98 on May 15, 2007 19:19:19 GMT -5
Outerbankschick brings up a good point. Did anyone notice how proud Frances appeared to be when she related that tidbit of information to her son, totally oblivious that she was adding to his torment? I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Rita Moreno portrayed every aspect of the extremely complex character of Frances Goren to perfection.
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Post by chyochyo on May 15, 2007 19:20:22 GMT -5
I am going to risk potential embarassment and come out as an aging X-Phile. Does anyone else rememebr the episode "Paper Hearts?" last night's outing was so similar that it might almost qualify as the CI version--an imprisoned serial killer (his victims were young girls in this case) lets police know about his scrapbook and the (five?) victims unaccounted for, one of whom may or may not have been one of the Agent Mulder's sister, missing since his childhood (his search for her drives his character the way that Mrs. Goren's illness drives Bobby's). Not that that made me any less engaged. I'm glad I'm not the olny one who lost sleep!
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Post by onepoliceplaza on May 15, 2007 19:26:49 GMT -5
This one was enough to bring me back in from the lurking shadows. A few brief (hopefully) comments for now because I feel the need to watch this 20 more times in order to catch most of the nuances. (They should show D'Onofrio performances in galleries and art criticism courses. A pause here, an eye flutter there, and Voila! -- a masterpiece both simple and profound. The man should receive a cut from vcr and dvd tape manufacturers!)
Item 1: I know that CI has been "renewed" on USA for next season, but after Endgame, I'm not sure AT ALL that Det. Goren is coming back. What can follow a detective/criminologist discovering that he is (too many hints from both Brady and Mama Goren for it not to be true; of course, get the DNA testtubes ready!) the offspring of a serial rapist/killer? It's not that I think Goren/D'Onofrio are not up to the task of moving beyond that -- far from it. But this episode felt too much like an ending. Perhaps a few guest appearances in Season 7 to tie up a few loose ends, but in my gut, Goren (and his soul's interpreter) is gone. VDO, in the past at least, doesn't seem fond of lingering. The last scene, with Bobby in his mother's now empty room, is probably one of his longest shots in which he is all alone, and it is incredibly filled with layered meanings. When he says to the nurse that he would just like to stay a bit longer (another re-watch needed), it sent shivers straight to the vertebrae: wouldn't this be like VDO to give a subtle, wistful pause as a way to say goodbye? After all, CI can still continue (Eames can carry the load, with possibly Logan becoming her partner) and Goren can report in every once in a while. Possible? Just a thought (and a fear...). I don't see a Season 8.
Item 2: Captain Ross. I seem to be in the minority here. I did miss the first ten minutes of the episode, so perhaps I'm wrong on this, but the Captain irked me all night. He certainly was realistic enough, but if he says to Eames one more time of "Your partner" -- I hope she sets him straight. Her partner (and a member of HIS squad) has a name. Show enough respect and use it! I don't expect him to say "Bobby"; but you could refer to him as "Goren" instead of the frosty and disdainful tone that is so evident. If Goren has responded with insubordinate or at least challenging statements to Ross, it is only after being frustated with the evident distrust and closed mind of the captain. It's an excellently played character, but I am admittedly too "attached" to Bobby not to enjoy when Goren gives it back to him. And last night I'm standing there (pacing in front of the tv- how nuts is that?!)stammering "For chrissakes... Somebody call Deakins! Before Bobby blows! Don't you DARE take him off this case!" Thank god for Eames.
Item 3 and last for now -- Award for best ensemble of actors in one episode, presented for "Endgame" . All performances (actors, writers, cameras) were excellent, and exemplary. On paper, who would have thought it? Even the somewhat over the top story (killer, mother, son- intertwined --ripped from the jump-the-shark headlines), became believable. Bobby's tortured realization and reaction ( after his choke-hold on Brady) to Mark's proud and taunting exhortation "Do it! It's in you!"; the interplay of the two brothers and mother, Eame's push-back response with Brady, and with Ross, and also her acceptance of trust at the elevator -- one re-wind scene after another. The stuff of which keeps you awake; wakes you up; and has you sitting in a room or office alone, unable and unready to leave ---to stay just a bit longer, please...
Barbara in Washington
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Post by DonnaJo on May 15, 2007 20:03:59 GMT -5
I'd like to say WORD to a few recent comments:
Outsider makes a thought provoking argument regarding Frances Goren's weaknesses, especially as a mother to two very young children. Who leaves their children alone for the weekend to sleep with an old lover? I don't care how miserable she was or how resentful of her situation.
Onepoliceplaza is right - after viewing the episode, it does seem as if the writer's were taking the end road, the non-renewal road. Maybe the feeling on set while filming Endgame was that the show was being canceled? And the tone was deliberately leaned towards ending Goren's story for good, just in case? Now that the show is coming back & it is believed that VDO still has one year left on his contract, his story should go on.
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Post by SarahIvy on May 15, 2007 20:25:01 GMT -5
Wow.
Honestly, I slept very poorly last night, tossing and turning after the impossibly bleak darkness and pain of this episode.
It was breathtaking. While I had/have serious issues with them going the "serial killer daddy" route, I was amazed that they could take such a contrived idea and pull it off so fantastically.
I credit the actors the most for that. I really thought all the performances were just incredible. And the writers managed to give the actors a great deal to work with emotionally without showing us too much...they actually used a lot of restraint, which surprised me.
I haven't had a chance to do a second viewing yet, so I think I'll wait to get into more details. I'm still processing this one for sure, and I suspect it will linger in my mind for quite a long time. There's actually so much I would love to comment on I'm afraid I'd type a novel! Right now my mind is swirling.
p.s. Speaking of repeat offenders, I don't think anyone mentioned the husband from Pas de Deux yet, did they? He was the Innocence League lawyer who called them.
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outsider
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by outsider on May 15, 2007 20:31:23 GMT -5
W Leight said in an interview that the death of Goren's mother would/could mean Goren could finally live his own life. My hope is that the bookend scenes marks the end of that chapter and we have a new free Bobby. Now Mr. D can explore a new character. I frankly wouldn't mind seeing a variation of the earlier energetic, into everything, inquisitive Bobby come back. We may in fact see that due to budget concerns. If they cut back on the location shooting -- very expensive -- and do more interiors. And if it is true as someone said (where the heck did I read it?) that Rogers might play a larger role -- there will be more time to do research, uncover clues and get back to solving crimes through clues not to mention arias. Moreover, the USA network may be more accepting of Goren being a bit more eccentric as he was originally created instead of the watered down version that started emerging in what -- season 3 or was it 4?
I am sorry I don't remember the citation or link for the Leight comment off hand. It is getting late. If I can find it tomorrow, and I have time, I will post it. Or if one of you knows it, it would be good if you could post it.
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Post by goreamesfan on May 15, 2007 22:05:10 GMT -5
Points I found interesting about this episode:
I, for one, loved Eames' reaction to Bobby saying that his mother wanted to meet her. After all he did to shut her out of everything to do with his mother, she's expected to laugh at his joke? Especially since he treated it as a joke? Clearly, she didn't think it was very funny, and I agree with her.
Yes, Frank showed his scumbag side, but we also find that he took care of Bobby when their mother left them FOR AN ENTIRE WEEKEND. The way Frank said it sounded like it wasn't the only time he took care of Bobby either -- and Bobby's face delivered the same message. I like how we got to see two sides of Frank, and to understand a little why Bobby still loves him so much (and to see that in VDO's expression).
I got the impresion that Goren blamed his mother's schizophrenia on Brady's raping her, but I don't buy it. SHE LEFT HER YOUNG SONS ALONE FOR AN ENTIRE WEEKEND. That's not just child abuse. That's mental illness. Secondly, Goren tells Nicole how old he was when his mother had her first psychotic break, and it was well after he was four years old -- seven, maybe? Nine? I could be wrong, but 3-5 years seems a long time for that to happen. Bobby himself doesn't actually remember that time and reconstructed his mother's emotional state from photographs. This seemed like an interpretation based on emotion, not fact (which doesn't seem like Goren, but it is his mother, after all). The rape may have precipitated or contributed to a breakdown, but Frances' illness preceded the rape. I'm sure of it.
Someone earlier asked about Goren's facial expression at the end of the " big scene" with his mother (I could watch that one again and again and never get tired of it -- WOW!). I thought VDO's performance conveyed a LOT of things as he looked at his dying mother, but I saw intense love above all else and despite everything. And I felt like he was starting to say good-bye too. It made me optimistic about how he'll deal with and resolve all this. I feel like he's already starting to. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I do think we'll see the old Bobby next season.
But thank God this wasn't the last episode ever. I'd have been REELING.
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Post by drsues on May 15, 2007 22:37:42 GMT -5
I loved this episode. If I can accept an NY detective being kidnapped, I can accept Darth Vader Daddy.
I think the imagery at the end, Bobby sitting in the darkness, the darkness that has been cast upon his childhood was quite profound. Was his father indifferent to him because he knew or suspected that he wasn’t his? Some of his favorite childhood toys gifts from a serial killer? I have more ruminations, but I’ll spare them as I seem to have written quite a lot her. Bobby’s next choice is to either stay in darkness or walk back into the light. I don’t know if we will get to see this journey next season, but it will be fodder for speculation.
I think there was a revelation for Bobby as he’s sitting there and he says “I can’t…” where he realizes that he is human, and isn’t able to keep his game face on… be the aloof professional… that he was too close… and then the explosion. Mark trading on the suspicion that Bobby is his son to provoke him into the attack, telling Bobby “you have it in you” because Mark had it in himself, making Ross right, he was too close.
I loved Eames’ steely gaze as Mark tried to unnerve her during the interviews. And that reminds me of the exchange in the car, where Bobby relays that his mom wants to meet Eames. I think this was a “I’ll do anything for Mom” moment, but he didn’t really ask, I think he just left the door open for her to decide. And Eames was amused.
I wanted to slug Goren’s brother. I have an aunt that was placed in a special Alzheimer’s unit this last year. There is the dutiful daughter that lives in town that takes care of the finances and makes sure things are ok at the nursing home, and there is the other daughter that, before the nursing home, keep visiting her mom and coming away with “gifts”. And true to the CI story, the dutiful daughter takes the brunt of the responsibility and is the one accused of never visiting and simply being “lacking” in general. The other daughter has drug and alcohol problems, and doesn’t seem to be able to do anything wrong. So as I watched the “finances in order” exchange, I saw him looking for his cut of the estate. Someone with his issues could do no less.
I think Frances’ reference to Bobby being the “prodigal” son was 2 pronged: his going off into the army, and this having to leave at odd times due to work.
I’m going to have to stop now, or I’ll have this continued on multiple pages.
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